Jerry Fu | Empowering Asian American Leaders

David Pasqualone: Welcome to Hanging Out with David Pasqualone and Friends. This week’s guest is Jerry Fu. Jerry and I are going to hang out with you for the next hour. We’re going to go through his life journey. The highs, the lows, the ups, the downs, the strengths, the weaknesses, and everything in between. And he’s got gold nuggets for you along the way that you and I can apply to our life.
Then he talks about at the end of the episode, how he was so afraid of rejection. And steps he took to get over it that you and I can too. And then he goes into his five steps of dealing with conflict method that he teaches in his coaching and leadership programs. So check out this great episode of Hanging Out and we hope it helps you.
Let us [00:01:00] know.
Hey, Jerry, how are you today, brother?

Jerry Fu: Oh, I’m good. How about you, David?

David Pasqualone: Man, I’m fantastic. I just told our listeners a little bit about you and what to expect in this episode. So let’s just jump right in. At this time, start off in your childhood, literally from where were you born?
Did you have brothers and sisters? Was your family a nightmare? Was it wonderful? Because that kind of background isn’t for us to make excuses, as we all know, but it does frame who we are as men today. So, man, jump in. Let’s hear the Jerry Fu story.

Jerry Fu: Yeah. Yeah. Um, my parents came over from Taiwan to finish grad school.
My dad initially started to get a master’s in chemical engineering. My mom was a CPA. And, uh, yeah, the one school that offered them both scholarships to finish their schooling was in Milwaukee. And so that’s where they graduated and that’s where I was born. And, you know, my mom and [00:02:00] dad, you know, they, they did everything they could to make sure that I had a carefree childhood.
Um, you know, that was just nice that anytime I wanted a toy for Christmas, you know, I, I wouldn’t have to worry about whether or not I’d get it. Right. It was just like, Oh, I mean, he wants a toy, I guess, because I mean, I’ve had friends that told me, you know, they grew up, you know, money was tight and, you know, Christmas was always a tough season for them because, you know, they would want to enjoy Christmas, but it was just suck knowing that their parents couldn’t afford, you know, gifts and things like that.
Right. So, um, Bye. Bye. For the most part, the childhood was fine. My brother came along, you know, a couple of years later, just to, and that was a, you know, that was a, a typical sibling relationship where as soon as he, you know, started thinking for himself, he started fighting a lot more frequently, you know, like any, I think siblings do growing up.
Right. Um, I think the bar kind of got set pretty high though, just because at a young age anyway, because, uh, I had, I grew [00:03:00] up with two both of whom went to Harvard. And then both of whom went to med school. So, you know, it was just kind of like this healthcare lineage, along with the fact that my grandpa is a physician as well, uh, practicing, you know, in Taiwan for 50 plus years.
And so, uh, this healthcare lineage kind of carried over to me and people just assumed that I was just going to. Become a physician. And so, you know, elementary school is fine. Uh, dealt with a little bit of racism, you know, just because there aren’t a lot of Asians in, in Milwaukee. Right. And so, yeah, yeah, I know.
Right. There’s no Chinatown in Milwaukee. Um, no. And so, yeah, and, uh, I’m a small kid. Frail kid, you know, just looking for a place to belong because, you know, not a lot of people look like me. A lot, a lot of people speak my, you know, speak Mandarin on top of English. So, um, you know, that was, uh, there’s, there’s always growing pains, right?
In elementary school, you’re just an easy target, right? [00:04:00] Just about everybody I talked to was picked on at some level in school, right? Yeah.

David Pasqualone: And I think that’s a great point because I believe, and you don’t have to agree with me, there’s one race, the human race. There’s different nations, there’s different cultures, but there’s only one race.
And anywhere you go, you’re going to have bias and idiots. So there’s different levels of it. And there’s, it’s not saying it’s right or justifying it, but I mean, wherever we go, you could be, I was talking to a guest and she was saying how her family immigrated from Israel. And when they went back to Israel, they were still biased against, and I’ve had guests from India and they were still biased against by their people within their own country.
So I think people need a wake up call. Not you, like everybody, we all need to remember there’s bias everywhere. And so, I mean, have you been, we’ll get into your story, but when we get back to Taiwan, we’ll talk about, were you welcome and accepted or were you rejected there too? You know?

Jerry Fu: Yeah. No, and that’s really, I know to build on that really, you know, [00:05:00] for a kid who’s Like, I, I, uh, for whatever reason, you know, I, I was addicted to approval.
I wanted to feel like I belong somewhere. Right. And then it’s, and it’s hard when, yeah, much like you talk about, right. If I go back to Taiwan, my Chinese isn’t good enough. And their, their, their culture is built on a hierarchy,
right.
You have people who, you know, are elder in life and deliberately will put down younger people because, you know, that’s how they were brought up, right?
They were picked on as, as, uh, younger stages of life. And then as they grew up, right, there’s this bitterness that just kind of builds up and say, okay, you know, I can’t I can’t retaliate against the people who offended me. So the next best thing is just to take it out on people that are easy targets.
Right. And yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s not healthy. You learn to work through it, but maybe there’s a better way. I still haven’t figured that out yet because you know, a lot of people, uh, you know, successful or otherwise, you know, remember these adversity moments as ones that actually helped change it for the better, right?
Like one of my favorite quotes from a deleted scene in Bruce [00:06:00] Almighty was when Morgan Freeman said, Hey, Bruce, you know, um, some of the prettiest. Pictures start off with some pretty dark colors, but if you’re painting a life story. And you know, yeah, do we condone the bullying or, you know, picking on things like that?
Uh, no. At the same time, uh, how will you respond to it in a way that will make you stronger? How will you see it as an opportunity to forgive after enough time has passed? Right. So.

David Pasqualone: Yeah, I think that’s well said. I think that’s well said. And in no way do I condone bias.

Jerry Fu: Yeah.

David Pasqualone: That’s not what I’m saying. And I think you know that, but it’s just like, I think the first step is accepting that it’s going to happen.

Jerry Fu: Oh, yeah.

David Pasqualone: If you took a room of neo Nazis, bunch of scumbags, sorry, if you’re listening, you need to get your life right. But if you took a bunch of neo Nazis and put them in a room, they’ll pick on each other. Oh, yeah. Everybody picks on everybody, you know, so it’s just, it’s like you said, there’s a hierarchy, whether it’s said or unsaid, there’s insecurities, but let’s get back to your story.

Jerry Fu: Yeah, sure.

David Pasqualone: Growing up, Yeah, [00:07:00] your family’s all in the lineage of medical and then you are feeling and thinking in a different way. So where does your life go from there?

Jerry Fu: Yeah. So, you know, my dad, um, wanted to kind of supplement my. My education. And so we spent a lot of Saturday mornings just doing math problems that he would write and expect me to do.
And, uh, you know, or it’s just framed learning in such a, such a negative light, right? Cause every time we would read something and you know, there was a word I didn’t understand. He would say, okay, let’s write it down. You got to look it up later. Right. Or I would get afraid when he would get upset with me if I didn’t comprehend the concept as quickly as he thought I should.
And so there’ll be times when we need to say, you know, do you understand? And I would be like, yeah, right. Cause I just didn’t, I just didn’t want him going on another level, just being frustrated [00:08:00] as to why I didn’t understand something. Right. And then, you know, then it backfired on me because, uh, After he’d throw another question my way and I clearly didn’t understand it and he would be like, why did you lie to me?
And it’s like, because I was so afraid of you, you know, throwing another tantrum because, uh, I just wasn’t learning as quickly as you thought it should be. Right. Uh, one of my favorite examples, not favorite, but one of the most poignant examples I share with people is when, you You know, at one point to get through to me, he would tell me, he taught me two words in Japanese because he grew up in Taiwan while they were under, you know, World War II Axis influence.
And so he had to learn Japanese. And so he taught me two words. He goes, Jerry, head. Adama. Concrete. Concrete. Adama Concrete. And it’s like, why did you teach me Japanese just to insult me because,
and
it’s not, I have to be, I have to be careful because I’ve realized, you know, my parents did everything they could to.
[00:09:00] motivate me to work hard and, you know, understand the value of delayed gratification, things like that. It’s just, unfortunately, the tactics that they use, right, um, are a little more scarring and, and, you know, are very effective if not, uh, you know, if not, uh, transient, I guess is the word I’m looking for.
It’s just, but you understand, right? You’re just kind of like, you know, I’d rather do this poorly than not at all. And so you’re like, okay, let me. Let me make sure I just show some grace to say, Hey, you know what? At least my parents cared enough to help me kind of succeed, even if it was just to crack the whip.
So,

David Pasqualone: yeah. And all that passion wasn’t because he didn’t love you. It’s because he did love you. It was just his way to communicate excellence. But yeah, I, and I’m tracking with you, man. I do not speak Italian. But man, I am fluent in all the cuss words with my mom.

Jerry Fu: There you go. Yeah.

David Pasqualone: She’d never speak Italian in the home, even though our family’s all from Italy.
But man, when she’d get mad, I can, I can now remember those words just fine.

Jerry Fu: Oh yeah. No, I have [00:10:00] a, one of my friends is Mexican. Yeah. If you want to learn all the good Spanish. Watch your World Cup game with them. That Mexico loses. And this is how you learn. That’s how you learn all the good Spanish. Now,

David Pasqualone: when that moment happened, the concrete head.
What age were you then? That’s so clear in your mind still.
Jerry Fu:

Yeah, I was like, uh I was probably around 12 or 13. This is like middle school now. By now we had moved to Tennessee. My dad’s job history just kind of took him around to different places. And so after we, after I finished fifth grade, we moved down to Tennessee.
So, you know, you wouldn’t have to keep flying back up to Wisconsin to hang out with us on the weekends. And so by now, right now, the stakes are higher. I’m starting to do SAT prep books and things like that. And, um, yeah, I just remember just. Just feeling helpless. Like, I just give up because I’m just sitting there thinking, how am I supposed to make this guy happy when I’m doing everything I can to do what he’s asking me to and I’m just not giving him the results that he wants.
You know, I just, I get it. You know, Saturday morning cartoons are only so helpful. [00:11:00] But at that point, I just remember, Just say, may I be excused? And I just went upstairs and I just hid behind, I just lie down behind the couch just out of sight and just like, just lied there and just, just cried because just like, I don’t know like what I’m supposed to do.
And I just want to be loved and I just don’t know how I’m supposed to have that. And my dad like comes into the room, this is like upstairs, so he comes into the room like a couple minutes later and he’s looking wistfully out the window and, you know, he’s like, are you okay? It’s like, no, dad. I’m just so discouraged just trying to, you know, develop these skills that you think are so important to me.
And he’s just like, yeah, you know, um, because I could, I could hear him, you know, in his mind, just like running over the same tactics that his dad used on him, right? My, my paternal grandfather, uh, to just push him, push him, push him to succeed. [00:12:00] And he’s like, yeah, you know, Sorry.
And,
you know, he turns around and he’s got tears in his eyes and he’s just like, it’s like, Jerry,
it’s like, Baba loves you.
And like, I just run, I just run to him. I just hug him and I’m just crying. We’re both crying. And he says to me, you know, maybe, maybe, uh, there’s a better way for me to get through to you to try to do this. And you know, the, like our problems weren’t solved that day. Um, My mom would have to step in sometimes and make sure she was in the room whenever he was trying to teach me, uh, you know, new concepts, because she knew that he wouldn’t get mad or he wouldn’t lose his temper as easily if she were in the room.
Um, so the irony though with this is that I have a very, um, skewed view of what failure is, right, because And honor shame cultures, right? Failure is incompetence and incompetence is shameful. So don’t fail. But the problem [00:13:00] is, right, for the easiest solution for people who are conflict averse and failure averse is to just not try, right?
Let me just not put myself in situations where I would look. uh, incompetent or I would struggle to reach success. I don’t want to look stupid or embarrass myself. So let me just never put myself in that situation. Um, and so, you know, from there, I did get better at things, you know, I started to succeed at academic math competitions.
I went through the piano lessons. I went through the violin lessons and, you know, that was nice, right? When you started to see the fruits of all the labor and at the same time, There is this, there is an unhealthy need for validation through getting good grades, right? There’s an unhealthy need for acceptance that I was seeking in places that, uh, the best place of, um, sources of validation for me, right?
And, you know, people for better or worse took advantage of that. They’re like, [00:14:00] oh, you know, he really wants to belong. He wants the gold star. Okay, let’s make him jump through a couple hoops, you know, let’s make sure he let’s challenge him to give more money. Let’s challenge him to serve in more positions.
Let’s challenge him to, you know, give more of himself, even if it costs him, you know, his own. Personal level of health or finance or things like that. And that’s a whole, that’s, I’m, I’m getting a little ahead of myself at that point, but

David Pasqualone: yeah, no, we don’t want to, I mean, we can go wherever you want, but I know, but no, yeah, but

Jerry Fu: we can, yeah, but I’ll, I’ll bring it back for a second.
So, and then while

David Pasqualone: this, let me ask you a question while we’re here, while this is all going on, a lot of times a sibling or siblings, it complicates it more because they’re naturally excelling at what the other person is doing. Parent wants, did your brother fall right into groove and met your father’s expectations?
So you were like further injured or was your brother struggling as well?

Jerry Fu: Uh, I mean, he, it was never a point where he upstaged me. Um, the bigger challenge was that my parents worked so hard on me that they didn’t really have a lot of energy for him. And [00:15:00] so a lot of things that they were hoping he’d do, he just didn’t want to do.
And then they’re like, yeah, we’re not going to fight this.

David Pasqualone: And so they wore out on him. Yeah. Well, the

Jerry Fu: irony, yeah. The irony is that when they left him alone, he actually found his own motivation. And so he actually ended up doing better than me in some ways, academically than I did. Uh, and you know, I was fine.
I wasn’t, I didn’t see that as anything to be jealous of. I was just Happy that he, you know, found his own motivation and found his own, you know, calling to work hard because that’s every parent’s, uh, you know, fear is that these kids are just gonna be like, ah, you know, I just want to play video games and not do anything meaningful or challenging.
There’s no sense of adventure, right? Which is what ironically I had because I was like, I’m tired of being challenged. I don’t want to deal with these things. I just want to play Super Nintendo in my air conditioned house with the big TV. Right. That was, that was happiness for me. I didn’t need much more than that.
Um, but then, uh, yeah. And then [00:16:00] my, just my view of success was very short sighted, right? Because I, I finished high school, you know, with a good academic career, but then I go to a school where I’m dealing with everybody’s top tens and. All of a sudden, right, the, the helicopter ing mom that was keeping me on track so I didn’t let distractions get the best of me isn’t there anymore.
And now, you know, first round of test hits and all of a sudden I’m in the hole, right, because I didn’t have my own motivation. And so, um, yeah, discipline in college my freshman year wasn’t great. I didn’t go to bed early enough. I’d wake up, I’d, you know, let myself get busy with, you know, entertainment or other things.
And so, yeah, my freshman year wasn’t pleasant. There was a lot of tough lessons and I was in this victim mentality where I just wanted to blame, like, teachers or other things. I didn’t want to take ownership for the fact that I made bad decisions because then I would beat myself up further. That was the other thing that people don’t realize is just to say, hey, okay, let me have more, let me take more responsibility for my [00:17:00] decisions.
And let me make sure that I’m kind to myself and make sure I don’t beat myself up needlessly, because that doesn’t accomplish anything, right? But then sophomore year rolled around, and that’s where things started to get interesting, because by now, right, I’m, I’m saying yes to too many things, extracurriculars, as a result of my need for belonging.
And I’m not, again, I don’t want to, Throw any particular organization under the bus. It’s ultimately my decision whether or not to say yes to these things. But I said yes to things because I needed that approval, but then I got to see an organic chemistry. And then I just said, okay, clearly, you know, my priority is out of order because I guess I’m not going to go to med school because I don’t want to even risk the fact that it might be rejected from med school.
Like, that’s how that’s how embarrassed I was by getting that grade. And so, you know, had to do some, you know, evaluation and reflection just to say, okay, what am I really about? And so I said, well, I You know, if I’m just going to take med school off the table, um, what other options are there available for me?
And so I said, well, I still like healthcare. [00:18:00] Uh, still like the knowledge base is still like that side of, of. of, of work. And so I said, well, you know, pharmacy seems to be doing okay. Let me, let me apply to become a pharmacist. And so thankfully, you know, I convinced pharmacy school that I would make a good pharmacist and actually had an interesting, um, choice after my junior year, because I actually got accepted during my junior year.
And, uh, pharmacy school didn’t require a bachelor’s at the time before attending school. So I had the option to leave, uh, undergrad after my junior year to start pharmacy school instead of waiting to graduate to get my bachelor’s and then start. And I was very, very tempted to defer a year. And my parents, of course, who are paying my tuition, you know, were like, please just start this next chapter of your life, save us a year of tuition.
And, you know, you know, we just think there’s no reason for you to stay. And of course, me being [00:19:00] comfortable, you know, I want my senior year, you know, I want to, I want to enjoy my senior year. I knew that was a losing battle or losing argument. They technically could just, you know, allow me, but I mean, it’s their money, right?
You know, if this is telling, if this is how they’re telling me to use it, I need to honor them. So yeah, made the difficult and necessary decision. It was the right decision in hindsight. I just didn’t appreciate it at the time. Um, Left after my junior year to start pharmacy school. I used my pharmacy school classes to finish up my bachelor’s actually.
That was one stipulation that I said, okay, if I’m able to, you know, transfer enough classes to graduate, I will. And so, you know, still got to walk with all my friends, which was nice. But yeah, pharmacy school, more of the same challenges. You go in, people expect a lot of you because of the way, you know, I carried myself.
They’re like, oh, he’s a gunner. And really, I was just, uh, doing my best just to survive, right? Um, thinking that this is [00:20:00] the path to the good life, right? Cause this is what we, I think anyone see, like, really, really wants is they’re like, Hey, I want a high quality of life. They say, Oh yeah, you know, we want to help patients.
We love patients. It’s like, Hmm, just be honest. Like this is more about your prestige and income than it is about actually. Impacting people. So that’s a whole nother rabbit trail discussion.

David Pasqualone: I don’t know. I think you’re spot on. There’s so many things like. Motivational speakers like, Oh, we just want to help you.
And they just want to sell books. And 90 percent of them have no real quality in life. They’re just people who rip off all truth comes from God, other famous people. They rip it off, write a book and become famous for nothing. So I’m tracking right with you. There’s good people, there’s bad people, there’s good attorneys, there’s bad attorneys, but like you said, they’re not trying to help the common man.
They’re trying to drive a nice car and live in a big house in an affluent city, right?

Fu: Yeah, I mean,
yeah, that’s, uh, we’re, we’re just looking to have that comfortable, predictable life with it, with a [00:21:00] certain degree of excitement that’s containable, right? Like that’s within our control. So,

David Pasqualone: yeah. And I’m not, again, not all there’s many passionate, but I I’m tracking with exactly what you’re saying.
I think our listeners are too.

Jerry Fu: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, um, with that said, yeah, so pharmacy school had its ups and downs, you know, um, a lot of test anxiety that I struggled with. And, you know, a a funny side discussion is that, you know, I grew up having grown up in Tennessee and started going to a Baptist church, right?
You know, alcohol was just off limits. It was just like, nope, don’t touch it. It’s not worth it. And then, even through college, I didn’t have any kind of sip until I turned 21. And that was even after my friends convinced me to say, hey, well, you know, at least will you try a little bit? And, you know, there wasn’t anything special.
It was just like, okay, that’s nice. But then you get to pharmacy school and you’re like, if you’re not an alcoholic when you start, you’re an alcoholic by the time you’re done. Cause after the, like all the tests just gets to you and you’re just like, okay, nope. Um, I just [00:22:00] want to, I just want to unwind and it’s the quickest way to do that.
So yeah, that was a, that was a tough phase for sure. But yeah, um, as pharmacy school finished up, my mom and I started to kind of get in an argument over the direction of my life, because, um, My mom felt like, yeah, uh, there are some areas in my life where she just felt like she just needed to step in and just kind of, you know, follow her plan because she knew what was best for me.
Cause mom’s no best. And so for better or worse, right. I, I didn’t date a lot, you know, and, you know, growing up in my teens, it was just, again, that fear of rejection, fear that if they knew me that they wouldn’t, if they really knew me, they wouldn’t like me. And so I just pushed away. You know, people, uh, whenever they got close.
And the worst was when I actually liked the girl who liked me back. And then I would just kind of set that up to fail. And, you know, again, it was just that self fulfilling prophecy of [00:23:00] being like, okay, I’m never going to be, you know, I’m never going to meet someone that actually liked, likes me. And, um, so by now, you know, my mom kind of basically had a plan on two fronts.
One was to say, Hey, you need to. Work for this chain pharmacy, uh, for like 20 years and, you know, just bank away money aggressively. And, you know, one day have enough money to do what you want. Um, I don’t want you to deal with the, with the employment challenges your dad struggled with when he was looking for gainful work.
Because my dad, you know, he finished one master’s degree, didn’t get a lot of reliable work because he was considered overqualified, finished another master’s degree, still struggling. And so she’s like, you know, I really. Rather you not deal with that. So that’s one front. You don’t realize the cost of that stability until you’re in it though.
That’s the problem. Uh, the other was that she, you know, reached into her network of, of matchmakers or Asian community and lined up a wonderful girl for me to [00:24:00] date and basically marry. They’re like, you don’t need to, you shouldn’t have to look for anyone else. She’s, she’s a, she’s a winner. And she, in a lot of ways she was, that’s the thing.
That’s what made it even tougher. Like this woman was. You know, came from a very, you know, motivated family, you know, she was in pharmacy school. She had an older sister was a physician. Her brother is a dentist, you know, fluent in Mandarin. Like she clearly had a good head on her shoulders, but I, you know, I just hated my life at that point.
And, you know, so it didn’t matter how great she was as long as I had all this internal toxin that I just hadn’t had processed or didn’t know how to like kind of, you know, purge from my body. It didn’t matter what kind of possible great future I could have with this woman because I just hated my life.
Right. And that’s just toxic to try to like take an unhealthy person and marry him to a healthy person. Right. Like that’s just, I’m just going to bring her down. And, um, yeah. And again, just my version of conflict, right? By now I’d moved home. [00:25:00] So now my mom was able to kind of just full blown push me to the things that she thought I needed to have in my life to have that degree of success.
And, you know, thankfully the woman moved on after enough time because I just didn’t have the guts to just be like, Hey, you know what? I mean, I’m flattered, I’m excited, and you know, I’m thankful that you think so highly of me, that you would want to date me, and possibly marry me, and you know, it just, this just needs to stop, because I’m not matching your intensity or your enthusiasm, and I’d rather not waste your time.
Right. And did she feel

David Pasqualone: the same way at that point? Or was she like, no, no, no, no, let’s get married. Let’s get married.

Jerry Fu: No, well, it never got to that. And we didn’t even get to that conversation. Like that’s what made it so sad because at least for me anyway, because, you know, I was just so wrapped up in my own self pity.
That I didn’t even want to really talk to her. I just kind of talked to her because my mom insisted I should try to talk to her. And after a while, you know, all her attempts [00:26:00] to like share her life with me and all those other things, right? It, it was just, it didn’t matter because I just wasn’t willing to have a real dialogue with her.
And eventually, you know, uh, she just. You know, kind of just pocket vetoed the possibility. And that’s the, that’s the thing. Like we never officially got to a point where we were actually dating. We were just hanging out occasionally and it was long distance. That also didn’t do me any favors. Um, I mean, I’ll get, I’ll tell the story cause you know, this is just the kind of, this is the kind of suffocating nonsense that I had to deal with.
Um, you know, I was in Knoxville at the time working and she was in school in St. Louis. And so at one point my parents were like, okay, you know, we should take the effort to go see her on a weekend. And I’m like, fine. You know, my work schedule sucked. I had to work every other weekend, you know, for the company that my mom wanted me to work for.
So, you know, we didn’t have a lot of time. Right. And I was like, okay, you know, Saturday or [00:27:00] Friday, we finish I’m off Saturday. So Friday I finish at two, my dad and I drive like eight hours to St. Louis, trying to get there. And along the way, my dad’s asking me, he’s like, Hey, you know, so what are your plans?
So, well, we don’t have a lot of time. So Friday night, you know, um, or we, or Saturday, Saturday, we drive, we get settled and I’m like, well, you know, we don’t have a lot of time. We’re just going to have dinner. We’re going to go bowling with a bunch of her friends. And that’s really about it. And then Sunday, you know, we meet up with her again and your friends will have brunch and then we have to drive back home because I got to be ready for work Monday.
And he asked me, he goes like, you guys aren’t having dinner by yourselves? And I’m like, no, is that a problem? And, you know, he doesn’t say anything. So what I found out later was that, you know, he relayed this information to my mom, who talked to her mom, who, who gave her a hard time being like, why aren’t you guys having dinner by yourselves?
You know, that’s Jerry’s probably thinking that’s a waste of time unless you, you know, have dinner by yourselves. And it’s [00:28:00] like, like, had we just kind of cut out all the parents expectations? You know, the weekend itself with her was actually. Pretty good. You know, we just had dinner with her friends. She clearly showed that she liked me, and when I was willing to have a good time, you know, was I really that into her?
At the moment, obviously not, because I was just too busy feeling sorry about the last one that I thought I let get away. But, you know, if I had just been more present and maybe opened myself to the possibility, hey, maybe I could actually be happy with this woman and we could have a nice life together, maybe, but it’s hard to enjoy that or allow for that possibility to kind of germinate when you’re just being suffocated with all these parents expectations, right?
Um, and the irony again, is that the parents, when they try too hard, right? Like you. You kind of, yeah, you kind of just stop when you sabotage the success you’re trying to, to allow to happen. So anyway, yeah. So I’m in the middle of this [00:29:00] job. I hate, right. I don’t like my work schedule. I don’t like my work commute.
And you know, my mom’s just sitting there trying to be like, Oh, come on. Like, don’t you, don’t you,
can’t you at least appreciate the positives? And I’m just like, but I didn’t have to choose this job. Like I had, I know friends in pharmacy that actually love their jobs. And, you know, I don’t,
I don’t know why I had to settle for this one, right?
And so anyway, thankfully she moved on. Eventually she just kind of stopped taking my calls and she thankfully met someone who appreciates her and, you know, they are married with kids now, you know. Happy for that. Meanwhile, you know, I’m still on this mental health journey. Just, I’m just living at home, which is nice because the money I would have spent on rent, I just used to like take trips to like Australia or New Zealand or other exotic places.
So it was a nice coping mechanism for a while, even though, um, like I wasn’t really doing anything to develop myself or my career, uh, because by now, right, I had established myself as a more of a [00:30:00] reliable team player for the pharmacy. And, um, As long as I was better than 70 percent of the workforce, I knew that no matter how upset my boss got with me, I knew my job wasn’t in jeopardy.
So I went through a phase where I felt like I had arrived, you know, I was making good money. I had a good work schedule at a different store that had more flexibility in scheduling time off. And you know, it was, it was a nice season for what it was, even though I was still lonely and still in a way feeling sorry for myself.
Um, And then after that season went away, I went to a different store that was much busier. And then, you know, my flexibility at work, you know, went away again. And I just said, you know, I’m not happy with this anymore. And, um, after a really bad customer service incident, um, where a patient just got mad at me for problems that I didn’t cause, but expected me to fix unrealistically.
Um, you know, I ran out of nice things to say and my partner got mad at me for what she thought was losing my composure. [00:31:00] And I just, I just remembered thinking, and I just said, okay, I have to get out of here. Um, I need to find another job, but the problem was right. Is that this was five years in that I was with the company five years now, just earned a third week of vacation.
And I just said, nope, it doesn’t matter. I, uh, It doesn’t matter if you give me a third week of vacation when the other 49 are terrible. So no, um, let me find something else. So I didn’t have a lot of options because I hadn’t been working on my career, right? I just said, well, as long as I play not to lose for this company, surely, um, I’ll be okay.
But now, right, the pharmacy market is much more saturated. There are a lot more schools being built and a lot more graduates, you know, entering the workforce. And now the security that I used to have is no longer available. And so the next best thing was to leverage my network. into another job with a with a pharmacy consulting company and it was a teaching position and I knew I’d always had a heart for tutoring and [00:32:00] and helping students process you know problems better and so I said well you know this is my one chance because I don’t have Uh, a PhD or residency to get a, a conventional teaching job at a, at a university.
So this is my next best thing. And so, um, it was a part time position, uh, that my friend had, uh, told me about. She was promoted. So this position was now available and she says, okay, if you’re willing to work your way up, you know, this, I can help get your name in the pool and interview if you, if you want to take this opportunity.
And I said, absolutely. And, you know, somehow I convinced this company that I’m worth taking a chance on. And, you know, they make the offer. This is in Houston, mind you. Um, so not only am I moving from Knoxville to Houston, um, I’m walking away from a full time job with benefits to take on this teaching position at a company my parents have no idea.
What they do. And of course, you know, they’re like, what are you doing? Like, we had this planned for you. [00:33:00] You know, what do you, what do you do with this? Right. And I just said, no, like, I’m tired of, I’m tired of, uh, working long shifts. I’m tired of being on my feet all day. I’m tired of dealing with irate customers and a drive thru and, you know, this.
Were there some nice moments living at home? Sure. Wasn’t enough to keep me there? No, absolutely not. And so, yeah, let me, let me take on this position. So let me take on this challenge. And initially, Dave, I mean, it was great. Like I, a friend of mine who lived locally, he and his wife let me rent out the guest room and help me kind of get settled.
Uh, you know, and I was excited, you know, to teach students and, you know, the challenges were, were exciting. And then. Uh, the problem happened about three months in because, um, I was tasked to help draft new test questions for a test. They deliberately created this position so that I could focus on, hey, let’s [00:34:00] figure out how to make this material better.
Let’s introduce some fresh questions so we’re not just recycling the test bank that we currently have. And so here’s my opportunity to really prove that I belong, right, was to take this task. And do everything I could to make sure that I, I came through for them and did the job that they hired me to do.
That’s not what happened, Dave. Um, what happened was I, I let myself get intimidated by the task. And then, you know, I just realized between writer’s block or other things, I’m not here to make excuses because that’s what got me fired. You know, I, I just said, you know, um, certainly they’ll understand why I Didn’t get the job done.
Like, you know, maybe they didn’t explain it to me enough or other things like that, even though she did. And so, you know, whenever she’d check on me, she’d say, how are things going? And, you know, I was too afraid to tell her that I had writer’s block. So I was just like, ah, don’t worry [00:35:00] about it. We’re good.
Until, right. The first test that we had to publish for the students came out and she looked at my test the day before that we were supposed to administer this test. And. Not happy. Right. Came in the next morning, super early. She did anyway and was just doing everything she did to could to overhaul the test.
And I was just like, what’s wrong? You know? She’s like, no, this test, like you basically took last year’s test and you know, you basically changed the numbers around, but you didn’t really change the concepts. Like these, like these tests are too easy for the students. Like, and so I spent all, I spent an extra like two hours this morning just trying to fix this.
I was just like, in my mind I’m like, oh God, , you know? Oh no, and. You realize that feeling guilty doesn’t really offset, it’s a nice defense mechanism, right? For just to try to take the heat off yourself, but ultimately it doesn’t change the fact that I’ve lost her trust, right? This was the huge milestone that I needed to show that I was a [00:36:00] keeper and that they were willing to expand me to like a full time salary position.
Not, not a good precedent. And so now I’m spending the rest of my time just playing catch up. And even worse, right, is that I’m the kind of guy, because I come from an on the machine culture, who just likes to beat myself up. Because this is how you show that you’re tough, or, you know, that, you know, you’re, you’re really not settling for, for less, right?
So it’s just a really unproductive cycle instead of saying, okay, what did I learn? What did he do differently? And let me just make the most of what I can. Instead, it’s just more of like, Oh, like, can I still make this work? Can I still, and I’ve, I set myself up to fail and I didn’t want to admit that. And so, yeah, after enough similar problems where, you know, problems came up and then I would, you know, give reasons as to why it, you know, it wasn’t my fault, um, 11 months later.
Yeah. They said, we don’t know what’s going on with you, but you know, you got to go. So yeah. You know, what do I [00:37:00] do with this situation? Right. I moved to Houston. For this job. And now they’re telling me it’s my last day. Holy cow. I mean, 11 months is very generous day for the kind of work that I gave them.
Honestly.

David Pasqualone: Yeah. And you were already a guy who was struggling your whole life with the fear of failure, and now it’s caught up to you in a way it’s confronted you head on. So is this the point? In your story, you just keep moving forward chronologically where you started to deal with failure, or did that still come later in your life?

Jerry Fu: Oh, no, this is where the roller coaster got really, really weird.

David Pasqualone: Gets worse before it gets better, right?

Jerry Fu: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that’s, uh, you know, this is where they throw me off the, the wagon. And now this is where I have to hold onto the rope and drag through the mud, right. Before you, before you get better.
And so, yeah, basically, so that was the first reality check was bam, like. Like whatever you’re doing, it’s not acceptable. Stop it. And I’m like, [00:38:00] well, I don’t, and I just didn’t want to admit this. Right. I, it took me a long time for me to build, to articulate, okay, what exactly went wrong with what happened and how do I own up to it and say, okay, how do I make sure this doesn’t happen again?
And to remember the lesson to say, Hey, they’re not paying you to make up stories. They’re paying you to get a job done, right? As the sooner you realize that and believe enough in yourself to say, okay, it doesn’t matter what it takes. As long as I’m not doing anything illegal or moral, I can find a way to get to the finish line.
But until I learned that lesson, it took about maybe four years before that really stuck. In the meantime, just got a really bad second reality check. About six weeks after I. was fired. I end up at a house of cards pharmacy job, uh, where four of my paychecks bounce while I fill for crooked doctors. Bam.
And yeah, so to give some context on that side of the story, Houston is a big city for drug diversion. There are bunches of [00:39:00] doctors who will take money and, you know, perform fake tests and basically, uh, give you scripts so that you can get high or you can sell pills so that You can get your friends high and that’s pretty much it.
And so unfortunately, yeah, there are a lot of people who ride this money wave and set up pharmacies in order to take advantage of this. Because, you know, from a strictly business standpoint, it’s a no brainer, right? When you profit off people’s addictions, you’re never going to have trouble making money.
And yeah, so, you know, you might get shut down after six months or even a year, but by then, you know, hopefully have enough money to cover your lawyer costs too. So, you know, congratulations.

David Pasqualone: Yeah, there’s sadly a lot of scams, not in America, but every country that there’s so much money involved. And there’s not enough consequence to the crime.
People just get away with it. I remember a guy. I gotta be careful with [00:40:00] this one. He would run those overnight ads when people have insomnia and sell the snake oil. Like this cures everything. It grows your hair back, cures indigestion. Your arm’s going to grow back. You lost in Vietnam. I mean, Do is a total liar.
But he made, he ran this for just, I think it was like a ridiculously short period of time. He got fined by the, you know, the government, like 2 million. And he wrote a check and handed to him on the spot. Cause he made like 9 million.

Jerry Fu: Oh yeah. So

David Pasqualone: it’s like, based on math, These scams work, but based on morality, that guy should be beat like a piñata and put in prison.

Jerry Fu: Yeah.

David Pasqualone: So yeah. So what happened now? You’re seeing this money. Did you fall into the trap or did you avoid it?

Jerry Fu: No. Well, I mean, I, because for me it’s a little different, right? Cause my license is on the line. Right. And so now it’s not that I’m there because I’m like greedy. I’m there because unless I keep moving stock for him, he won’t, I couldn’t get [00:41:00] paid.
Right. Cause he is writing bad checks. And so like you and you know, we’d make money for him, he write a check and bounce. And then all of a sudden, he’s like, well, you know, that money’s gone. So you’re gonna have to, you know, keep working for me in order to meet in order to make enough money for me to actually write you a legit check.
And so now, right plus I’m conflict diverse, right? So I don’t know how to confront this guy. And I’m just like, how do I, You know, how do I deal with this, right? And so, yeah, just an unproductive nine months. And after a while, yeah, you just realize that, uh, yeah, it was, it was really bad news. And I was just, I was in a defeatist, mentality where I just said, Oh my goodness, you know, I, why did I get this work so hard to get this degree just to get, you know, in this kind of situation.
Right. And it took some friends again, just to really kind of tough love me and just say, Jerry, you know, Hey, look, like you worked way too hard to settle for this kind of thing. Right. Like you aren’t even getting paid. You’re, you know, you’re writing, you’re, you’re, you’re writing checks with money. You can’t cash because not because you’re being irresponsible, but [00:42:00] because, you know, for whatever reason, you trust this guy and he didn’t come through for you.
And even, even after you say, well, let me show grace and let me do my part. Like you don’t have to do that. Like you can just leave if he’s not paying, like that’s not being obnoxious. You’re just holding him accountable. Yeah. There’s a difference. Yeah. There’s, there’s difference. Yeah. And it’s not like you’re not being greedy, but this is how like a part of this is again, this, you know, my mom views money the same way in a similar way.
She’s just like, she’s like, she’s a shame to take too much from people as a CPA. Like she’s like, well, you know, they can use that money toward other things. And it’s like, mom, like your, your skills have value that these companies are willing to compensate for. They’re not resentfully writing you these checks.
They are happy to pay for an accountant who does a good job. Right. But you know, who am I to tell my mom how to change her thinking about money?

David Pasqualone: Yeah, now when all this is going on, and I know we’re getting to the point where you’re going to be learning to deal with [00:43:00] failure, learning to deal with adversity and conflict, but when this was happening,
Were you in a position where your license was in jeopardy, where there is that much fraud, you could have been held accountable on top of it?

Jerry Fu: I mean, there was, it was heading that way. Thankfully, I never, thankfully, I never got in trouble. Um, we’d get DPS reports requesting information on prescriptions that we had dispensed.
Um, But it never got to a point where it was a full blown investigation of my license or anything like that.

David Pasqualone: And how did you meet this individual? Did you say, or did you not say like, how, how did you meet him? Was it, was it a target? Because what I’m thinking of is a lot of people who are scam artists, they actually.
Are intelligent emotionally, and they can pick out of a crowd, the people who are vulnerable. So did he target [00:44:00] you or was it just how, how things worked out that you ended up together?

Jerry Fu: Oh, no, he, I’ll tell you that story too, cause that’s a fun one. Um, so the thing is, this guy is a lawyer and a banker, so clearly.
He knows exactly what laws he’s breaking. He is a very intelligent individual. Unfortunately, I would say too smart for his own good. In fact, he actually still has a consulting service because, you know, he can do that. So anyway, no, so I met this guy because when I was unemployed, part of, um, the conditions for receiving unemployment benefits was to apply for like a couple of jobs, things like that.
And at one point I ran out of. Options of companies I, um, recognized. And so there is one that said company confidential, and here’s a hint. When you see a job posting that says company confidential or a great company, don’t apply like if they don’t have the courage to tell you who they are, it’s nothing, [00:45:00] it’s nothing bad might happen, but nothing good will happen.
I can assure you that. So anyway, so I applied to this company. My resume falls into the hands of a headhunter who’s clearly more about her commission than actually helping me land a legit job. So she’s partnering up with all these pill mill pharmacies, basically looking for pharmacists willing to basically dirty their license, you know, in order to make some money, because like the job market is terrible right now, especially in Houston, it’s, it’s very saturated.
So, um, and what year was this again? This was 2011. So the funny thing is, so the first job she. introduces me to, yeah, north side of town, get a part of the city. Um, you know, not great. Like my, I’m conducting my interview in a Mexican restaurant next door to this place and this really like shady, like, you know, kind of plaza.
And I’m just sitting there thinking in my suit, and I’m just like, where am I? Like, what am I doing here? So, Anyway, the guy says, Hey, you seem really nice, but I actually, you know, don’t have a spot [00:46:00] for you. I’m going to open up another pharmacy. And as soon as that opens up, we’ll, we’ll get you, you know, uh, in the lineup.
And I said, okay, well, you know, nice to meet you. So I go back home with no idea what’s going to happen next. And then, you know, the headhunter calls back. It’s just like, Hey, I got another job lined up for you. Similar situation. Uh, it’s just a little closer to where you live. I said. Okay, you know, that’s fair enough.
You know, I need a job. It’s close by home. That sounds comfortable. And that was when I met this guy because he was trying to start me up. And he talked me up a good game, right? He’s like, Oh, look, I see you just, you know, you have this academic affairs job you just came from. I think that could really help us out.
And, you know, I’m just like, Oh, well, you know, it’s been six weeks and I, I probably need something. So sure. You know, this seemed like a, A simple enough solution. It’s close by home. He’s paying me, you know, fair rate. Um, and then the weird thing is, is that the, uh, the headhunter shortly after I signed this guy’s contract, she calls me and she’s like, Hey, um, you should back out now because, uh, [00:47:00] Like, I think the first guy will be a lot more reliable, uh, in terms of paying you the way you’re supposed to be paid.
And of course, I’m just confused because I’m sitting here thinking, this woman, you know, did so much to convince me of both jobs. The first one, she’s like, is this okay? Is this okay? And I’m just like, why is she pushing so hard? Same thing with this one, right? She’s just like, Hey, are you ready to go? Like, let’s go ahead and get you started.
And now she’s like saying, Hey, get out of there. And I just said, you know, I don’t know what’s going on with her, but, you know, I signed this contract, I’ll honor it. And, um, so yeah, that was my mistake. Cause after the first check bounce, he actually called me to apologize and said, Hey, you know, something happened.
Uh, you know, we’ll get you the cash to replace the check that bounced. And I was just like, okay, that’s weird. Uh, but fine. But then I, so the thing is I was sending my checks home. I didn’t have a local bank account, so I had no idea what was going on with them. I just assumed that they were clearing until two, three, and four bounced.
And then they’re like, Hey, Jerry, you know, uh, other snacks happened. Uh, we owe you a couple more checks. So, uh, you know, we’ll, we’ll get that [00:48:00] going. And so I call home, you know, I’m like, Hey mom, did you know that this was happening? And she’s like, well, yeah, but I was just too afraid to tell you because I didn’t want to give you bad news.
And this is, this is where the conflict aversion starts to get unhealthy, right? What you just like, afraid to tell me bad news. Yeah, that’s just

David Pasqualone: life. That’s just part. That’s important facts. You’re working for free. The other thing is, are you working weekly, bi weekly, monthly? Weekly,

Jerry Fu: daily. Yeah. Like I’m, I’m like, I’m working full time hours for this guy.
And like, I’m not even getting paid.

David Pasqualone: Yeah. So that’s five weeks. That’s over a month. You’re working for this guy.

Jerry Fu: Yeah.

David Pasqualone: Or probably a month and a half to two months before you get your check.

Jerry Fu: Yeah.

David Pasqualone: Wow. Okay. So he’s a real winner. And then when do you finally, you’re like enough?

Jerry Fu: Well, I mean, I had to, like I said, I still had to move stock for him until I’ve made enough money back so he could replace the bad checks.
Like this, it was just a really, really bad cycle, right? You’re just kind of like, okay. This is that like check bounces off to work extra to make up the money for the money I was supposed to be paid earlier and then [00:49:00] so anyway, so after I managed to China and on a cycle where he only shorts me one check, which I never saw, like my last check that he never paid me.
Thankfully, my friends got me out of that job with another one, with another company that’s more legitimate. And so, uh, you know, I’m, I’m kind of excited. And at the same time, this company, like a month into my hiring, they said, Hey, so we like you, but money’s so tight that we can’t pay you more than eight hours a week.
And I was like, Oh, so now what? And, uh, they said, well, you can, Get more hours if you’re willing to work at our Austin location, at least until we can possibly get you more hours in Houston. And I said, well, beggars can’t be choosers. This is 2012 now. And so, you know, I have no idea what my life is going to look like, right?
I could end up in worse places. Everyone says, oh, you know, Austin, you know, it’s great city. I love, I love Austin. And I’m just like, you know, it’s two and a half hours away from Houston, right? It’s not, it’s not terrible, but it just wasn’t home. And so, yeah, again, I just work out there. Again, great work team, but still just anxious [00:50:00] because, you know, my sense of stability and routine is just completely warped.
And so that summer was key because that was the summer that some friends of mine who run a pharmacy leadership nonprofit. said, Hey, uh, one of our facilitators backed out for our national meeting this summer. And, um, we know you’ve been facilitating workshops on the fraternity side and we’d love for your help on the leadership side.
Are you willing to step in? And I said, absolutely. Cause I love these guys. I loved everything that they were doing. And so somehow teaching leadership. Kind of unlocks some different thinking in my head, right? Cause before I just said, Oh, conflict is difficult. I’m never right about conflict. So let me just run from it or just give in every time someone’s upset with me.
That doesn’t work. Guys believe me, might just leave more scarring. And then, same thing with leadership. I just said, wow. You know, I struggle with leadership. I struggle to motivate people or confront [00:51:00] people. I just must never be good at it. I just. I knew people who were already leaders in high school. They already had the drive and the confidence.
And I’m just like, I’m not like them. So I don’t know if I’ll ever be like them, but now having seen leadership models for me, right, a guy named Michael Negrete, who I got partnered up with to facilitate this material. And I saw just how he drew out the best in me. And I’m just like motivated to run through walls for this guy.
And I had to ask myself, well, you know, what if I could, what exactly did Mike do that I can study so that I can kind of incorporate. The most effective qualities of his leadership style into my own. And so, you know, I came back from that convention, all fired up and, uh, had an interesting choice about a month or two later when the company said, Hey, you know, you have the option to stay part time in Austin, or you can take on a full time manager position that opened up in Houston.
What do you want to do? And I said, wow, um, I loved my Austin [00:52:00] work team. They were really, really great, but I knew that. I couldn’t stay safe. I didn’t want to stay scared and I knew I wanted to come home. And so the irony is that, you know, when I first got to Austin, I was just struggling to feel like I belong, just all those insecurity feelings again.
But really, I was just being impatient because I wasn’t giving enough time for actually, uh, for relationships to develop in a real way. Like I was just. You think that it’s like a microwave thing, you plant some magic seeds and it sprouts up, when actually it’s more of like a day by day tilling of the soil to make sure that these, you know, relationships cultivate.
So the irony is that even after about five months, I started to get comfortable with some of the people there. And then it’s like, okay, just kidding guys. And going back to Houston because that’s where my heart is kind of thing. Anyway, so I moved back home that November, just so excited, you know, we say goodbye, goodbyes in Austin
and,
you know, come back home ready to just kind of just think this is, this is the time where I can exhale, you know, I have a full time job.
I’m a manager at a store [00:53:00] that is close by home, you know, yeah, I’m, I’m good. And the following year I proceed to get written up. Because the technicians that I have at that point are not pulling their weight and I am struggling to write them up, confront them, or fire them. And so management says their behavior is a problem and your passivity is a problem.
And so therefore we need, we’re going to work on you in order to get through to them. And, you know, again, just, ugh, like I don’t like feeling like I failed at this stuff and, you know, don’t want to say it’s my fault or I don’t want to take ownership for my part in the situation. And so, of course, after enough tough love from my friends, they’re like,
nope,
you know, you blabbed.
You said there are some things you could have done better and so there’s your chance to prove yourself. So yeah, I get reassigned to a store much farther away from home and you know, I just keep my head down, work hard. I’m more lucky than good when I push out one of the problematic [00:54:00] technicians. Um, I just basically convinced her that she should put in her two weeks notice because she obviously wasn’t getting respected by the company and then the company went ahead and Terminated her.
And, you know, what’s funny is some of my friends debate whether or not I should admit that story because they’re like, Jerry, no one wants to hear about your struggles. People want to hear about your successes. And I’m just like, you sure about that? Cause this is the

David Pasqualone: opposite on our show. It’s yeah. I know successes and the failures and we break down how you got there.
So yeah.

Jerry Fu: Yeah. So it’s, it’s context for sure. Because yeah, if I only have on here are failures. Yeah. Don’t listen to me, but you know, obviously I have some degree of success and it’s just more fun, but yeah. So to pull back the curtain a little bit,

David Pasqualone: right? The good, the bad and the ugly, man. Everything you put in, it’s real.
It’s life.

Jerry Fu: Yeah. So anyway, while I’m in the doghouse, the company actually has their funding pulled. And so, you know, I’m just like, okay, well, you know, I was looking to leave anyway. So it’s just a little more urgent trying to find a job. And so the crazy thing is, is that I randomly get an email from [00:55:00] a recruiter saying about, you know, this great job in this safe part of the city and things like that.
And I said, okay, let me, uh, You know, throw my hat in the ring, see what happens. And the only reason I had an interview with this, um, with this guy was that I had leadership experience on my resume now. So I tell people, I said, wow, that was a really good decision, right? That I have, you know, leadership saved my career, right?
Because otherwise I wouldn’t get the attention of other people. And so initially what’s funny is I was actually one of two finalists. And initially I lost, um, to lost that to the other, other candidate. And so I was just like, okay, well, you know, got to keep looking. No kidding, Dave. Like, not even a week later, I get a call from the guy again and they’re like, Hey, we had a falling out with our number one.
Like, are you still interested in this job? And I was just like, absolutely. Like, you know, I need this job. And, um, you know, that was fun for about 11 months again, not because I got fired, but it was just the business model just didn’t work. And that was a tough reality where you [00:56:00] feel like you’re doing everything you can.
To actually get the job done and do all these things correctly. But then, you know, it’s still not enough because the bottom line is there, right? Like I tell people there was at one point, I remember I filled, I filled the ZPAC for a patient and I saw the profit margin was like 50 cents. And it’s like, come on, man, like that doesn’t even pay for the label, let alone my salary for filling this.
I don’t know how I’m supposed to survive on this. So yeah, that job quickly got bought out and they moved me on. So, um, Thankfully, again, just by the, by the skin of my teeth, right? Next, I just happened to grab onto some of the coattails for other jobs. And I tell people, right, these jobs that offer higher quality of life in pharmacy, uh, are like icebergs where they kind of melt after one or two years.
And so that’s basically what I was doing was I was just hopping from job to job. You know, I’d survive for a little bit and then, you know, the bosses would come in, Hey, so this business model isn’t viable anymore. We can’t pivot. So [00:57:00] sorry. Um, and then about five years ago when my previous employer went under more of the same problems, insurance audits, that’s another thing that takes a lot of pharmacies down.
Um, insurance is like to see if you cross all your T’s and dot all your I’s. And if you don’t, they just take back the money because you know, they just need an excuse to take away your money. And, um, I said, you know, I’m tired of, uh, chasing scripts from doctors. I’m tired of finding insurance companies that determine my worth, um, as a pharmacist.
But, you know, I love people development, which I consistently done since I started 10 years ago. So what would a career in coaching and facilitating look like? Because I know what kind of help I wish I had had, uh, trying to get better at leadership. You know, and so still very scared of failing rejection, right?
It was like an occasional hobby of that. And even though I declared myself a coach. You know, occasionally be like, would you pay me 50 bucks to, you know, teach your [00:58:00] workshop? And, uh, yeah, again, just a lot of research, a lot of interviews, but no real motion in terms of actually getting some skin in the game until I decided to go through a formal coach training program locally.
And from there, got to know a bunch of coaches and they said, Hey, this is how you file the LLC. This is how you get your bank account open. And this is right as the pandemic happened. Right. So now. Like, I’m just like triply stressed because I have this pharmacy job. Don’t get me wrong, that was the one thing that kept me, uh, paying my bills while I was in the middle of this pandemic.
So don’t think I’m ungrateful for this job, but I knew when the pandemic hit, I said, how much longer am I going to put this off? Right. So, yeah, let me. Sink 5, 000 bucks of my own money to get this thing started, get the LLC, get the bank account and the website up. And, um, yeah, first year was just try, struggle, fail, right?
Still scared of rejection skill, still scared to put myself out there and see who would actually hire me as a [00:59:00] coach or a facilitator for their, for themselves or for their companies. And the only reason I survived the first year was that I did private tutoring to help cover the majority of my expenses.
Aside from appearing on like. You know, 70 or 80 podcasts. And, uh, again, still in the middle of this transition, still have my day job as a pharmacist, even as I, um, continually looking to build my business in whatever spare time that I have. And, uh, yeah, again, just that mindset of, can I really do this? Do I really believe that, you know, this is possible for me?
And, you know, you have to relearn that process all over again. And yeah, here we are.
David Pasqualone: Awesome, awesome. So let’s do this. On your journey, we talked about the fear of rejection. And we talked about Just the fear of conflict. What have you learned? Let’s start with rejection. And a lot of it parallels and they go hand in hand, but what have you learned that you want [01:00:00] to help our listeners with to overcome the fear of rejection?
Yeah.

Jerry Fu: And this is something guys I preach to myself every time this happens because I’m just like you in the middle of it. I don’t like rejection. Right? I don’t like hearing the word no whenever podcast hosts would tell me no, we’re not interested, right? I’m just like, ah, before it used to really stink, but now You realize that rejection is one post I saw on LinkedIn said, rejection is redirection.
You know, no, it doesn’t have to be final unless you say it is right. Um, no is what frees you up to pursue the next opportunity. No is what gives you closure because thank goodness you don’t have to chase down this lead anymore because they’ve already closed that door for you. And like Donald Miller says in one of his books, he says, rejection is just a part of life because I’ve learned as a, once I became a business owner, right.
Um, You have to say no to things, right? Because you realistically can only say yes once. You can say no to plenty of things, but you can only say yes once, right? [01:01:00] Uh, you know, when I’m a pharmacy manager and people will come to me and they’ll say, Hey, Jerry, I need a job. Do I say yes? Would anyone advise me to say, yeah, just give them a job, Jerry.
You have, you know, they need help, give them a job. It’s like, no, it doesn’t work that way. Right. Same thing with like, you know, let’s say you have a younger sister, right. And you’re just like, don’t say yes to everybody. Don’t say yes to every guy who asks you out. It’s just because you can, you know, it’s not, it’s not smart.
Um, you know, and so to recognize, hey, no, is not a bad answer. Right. And you can say it too. Like, it’s okay. The, the healthiest relationships are one where you don’t have to be afraid to say no. And you can know that you can be okay with it. Right? Like my friends, when they invite me to do stuff, they understand.
They’re like, Hey, you, you only have so much time or energy and money. If you don’t, if now it doesn’t work out, it’s okay. We’ll, we’ll get around to it. So that’s what helps me out with rejection. And I mean, don’t get me wrong. Like in my own struggles to actually date and things like that. Yeah, no. Yeah. It [01:02:00] sucks when you’re just trying to get something off the ground, but the sooner you realize that no, it’s not fatal.
If you love your life, you know, no, it’s not a problem. Right. So that’s the rejection side of things that for you to be able to say, it’s okay if I say no, because I’d rather just adjust the expectations now, as opposed to say yes, and then ghost you, you know, like that’s not, that’s not healthy, right?
That’s not good for your reputation or your sanity.

David Pasqualone: Oh, no, I agree completely. So being very. Transparent and clear up front is well worth it. Why delay the inevitable? Why drag things out? Why make a miserable situation for everybody? So no, it’s just, that’s it. No, I’m good. So let’s do this now. What about conflict?
So some people have no problem with conflict. Some people hate conflict, but they do it. And on the outside, they look solid. Some people hate conflict and they’re just a pushover.

Jerry Fu: So

David Pasqualone: what have you [01:03:00] done to develop yourself that our listeners can too? So you can walk up to somebody and say, Hey, you know, you’re not meeting the expectation.

Jerry Fu: Yeah, yeah. So, um, I’ll share, I’ll share an example. Just, you know, being a manager at my pharmacy, it’s basically like my leadership lab, right? I just have to trial this stuff and see how my team responds to it. And so, there was one time I had a technician who, uh, sweet, sweet person, but clearly lacked discipline, clearly, you know, struggled to really feel like what Her irresponsibility had consequences beyond her own problems, right?
Beyond what personal issues, like she would show up 30 minutes late and then she’d take another 15 to get coffee. And then she’d like cut up with everybody. And so now, you know, she’s, we’ve already lost half an hour’s worth of work for her and then another 15 [01:04:00] minutes that she’s actually, we’re actually paying her.
Right to goof off right by now. And so after enough of it, you know, I’ll have, I’ll be happy to say I kind of failed the first time I tried to address this because you try to be nice, right? You try to round up the group and say, okay, guys, we’re gonna have a group meeting about punctuality, right? And then you’re like, okay, let me talk to everybody because this is a good lesson for everybody.
But let me just make sure this kind of smart bum gets through to her, right? You’re just like, let me just carpet bomb this whole thing and make sure that she’s kind of covered in this discussion.

David Pasqualone: And now you’re pissing off everybody because they’re like, 12 of us are Ja just fine. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . And she’s the problem.
Everybody knows it. So you’re wasting our time. Yeah. So that passive aggressively talk to her. Mm-Hmm. . So that was a lose lose right there, right?

Jerry Fu: Pretty much. Yeah. Well, here’s what makes it funny was that Yeah. Like somehow we actually got through to her, like, and so she’s like, oh, you know, yeah. You know, I should start showing up more consistently on time.
Good. And well, here’s the thing. And then she proceeded to be late for the next five days. And so we said, okay, now we have to talk to her directly [01:05:00] because, you know, anything less than this will be unacceptable for me or for her. And so I pull her aside, we’ll call her, uh, Emily. So I pull Emily aside and it’s like, Hey, Emily, so look, um, you know, we’re not happy with, with your current level performance, right?
Like you show up late. And then you’re not even focused when you show up late. Yeah. So yeah, like we’ve talked to you several times, you know, coaching you through this behavior and you keep, you keep agreeing, and yet there’s no action to demonstrate that you’re actually serious about this. So, you know, this is your first written warning and hopefully it’s just a wake up call because it’s nothing more than that.
And then she goes into excuses, which are similar to the ones that I gave, right? This is what made it hard. It was like, I’m hearing the same things that I was saying before I got fired. And I’m still thinking, do you have any idea just how terrible that sounds from the other side of the table? Right. And so she’s like, well, look, you know, traffic in Houston is bad.
And, you know, can’t you just let me come [01:06:00] late, like arrive late. And then I’ll just stay late to kind of offset the time. You know, and all these other personal things just keep getting away. And that’s just said, you know, you make the same money. So it’s a technician. So why is it okay for us to, you know, lower our standards for you?
Right. And I would, and I told her straight up, I just said, Hey, look, you, by, from what I, from what I see, you have three options, number one, leave earlier, just. Think of the worst possible traffic scenario, and then just leave at that time. And that way you have no chance of being here late, right? And you have

David Pasqualone: time to drink your coffee on your schedule.

Yeah, exactly.

Jerry Fu: Exactly. The other, the second option is to move closer, you know, find an apartment that’s closer so that you don’t get, you don’t let traffic get in the way of your work commute. If it’s too expensive, fair enough, but understand that that’s an option. Third option, find another job closer to where you live [01:07:00] so that you don’t have this tardiness problem.
And, you know, she’s like, well, what are you really writing me up for? Is it the tardiness? And I was like, no, it’s, it’s your inconsistency. Like you made a promise that you were going to show up on time and you proceeded to not. So, you know, I tried to land the plane gently at the end, right? You just say, Hey, look.
We like having you here. We want you here. And this feedback that we’re giving you is to make sure that you stay here. Right? And, you know, that wasn’t fun, but I knew it was necessary. Right? Anyone with kids can relate to what I just did. Right? You’re like, I take no satisfaction in disciplining you. And I know that the costs are high.
Of not disciplining you is worse than if I, you know, inflict a little bit of pain so that you understand that what you did was wrong. Right. Um, and so, you know, as people can tell, right, I am conflict diverse. I can only unlearn so much of my conflict diverse nature, like in the last couple of years. But [01:08:00] in order to do that, right, you have to develop a system that helps compensate for you when you know, you’re going to default to bad habits, right?
I tell people about my gym routine all the time, just to show, you know, Like what actually happens to actually move myself forward, right? People say, Oh, Jerry, you’re so disciplined. And it’s like, no, I wake up with the same apathy. Everyone else does when it comes to going to the gym. Right. I’m just like, I wake up and I’m like, Oh, I don’t want to do this.
And so what do I do? Can I get my socks on? Yes. Can I get my keys? Yes. Can I get my sneakers on? Yes. Can I get myself in the car and drive two miles to the gym? Yes. Okay, now that I’m here, can I start doing pull ups? Yes. Okay, once that’s done, four sets, can I get a leg press? Yes. Okay, three sets, done. All right, triceps, done.
Seated row, done. And that’s like my core four. Once I get my core four done, right, I’m like, okay, I got some momentum and now I can get through [01:09:00] the rest of my workout. And every time My mind’s just like, you can stop now. That’s enough. You can stop now. And it’s like, no, let me just do one more and let me do one more.
And so this is kind of like how my conflict resolution system works too. Five steps, right? First step. Oh, okay. I don’t want to have this conversation. Okay. Number one, imagine what a successful conversation would sound like. Okay. Can I imagine that maybe this conversation could actually go well. Maybe I just, you know, ask my roommate to stop leaving dirty dishes in the sink.
Could it be that easy? Well, maybe. It doesn’t have to be realistic. We just need to allow for that possibility. Hey, could I be a good leader? Right? Hey, could this conversation go well?
Okay,
maybe it can. It doesn’t have to necessarily restore the relationship to 100 percent though, right? Sometimes success might simply be finding a truce to say, hey, let’s not talk about religion or politics because, you know, that just seems to put us in a bad spot.
Right. Or success might be terminating the relationship. Hey, you know, you got to go. Sorry. [01:10:00] But you just have to have some idea that maybe you can know how to get, you have a destination in mind, you know, you can, and you believe in yourself enough to get there. Uh, step two is to find 10 seconds of courage.
And this sounds abstract for some, but other people love it. And so let me explain on this. 10 seconds. In 10 seconds, can you do the next simple action to initiate contact? So in 10 seconds, can you send that email? In 10 seconds, can you pick up the phone? In 10 seconds, can you send that text to say, Hey, uh, I need to talk to you about something.
It’s now a good time. Here’s a tip. Give the topic you need to discuss so they’re not dying a thousand deaths, right? Don’t just say, Hey, I need 10 seconds to talk to you because then they’re like, Oh, what’s he going to bring up? It’s like, no, I need 10 seconds to talk to you about functionality. Can we talk about that?
It’s not a good time, right? 10 seconds because you got, if you’re conflict averse like me, you need to set the boulder in motion and lock the gate behind you so you don’t rationalize. Oh, maybe it’s not so bad. That’s a common thing I fall into, right? Oh, it’s not so bad. Maybe I’ll just give [01:11:00] them one more chance.
Nope. Stop it. Start this. So that’s 10 seconds of courage. Step three, scripted critical moves. Like don’t just rattle around in your head, letting thoughts kind of just float all over and you’re just like, okay, maybe there’s something logical in here. Get it out on paper. Organize your thoughts, anticipate, uh, rebuttals or pushback, and then imagine what you could say to that response, right?
So, say, Boss, I, I think I deserve a raise after five years of loyal, you know, above and beyond work. Well, you know, money’s tight right now, so everyone’s just gonna kind of have to suffer a little bit until, you know, we have a better quarter. It’s like, well, you know, um, I know how much value I bring to the table, and it’s, I think it’s cheaper for you to give me a raise as opposed to replace me with someone who’s willing to do work for cheaper, and, you know, then you have to spend more time cleaning up after any headaches or mistakes that they’re making.
Is that a fair statement? You know, I wouldn’t go, don’t follow that blueprint exactly, but these are the kind of ideas we want to plant in your head,
right?
[01:12:00] So, yeah, so that’s step three. So script your moves, anticipate pushback, organize your thoughts. Not in your head, but on paper. Step four, rehearse your critical moves.
Spar in the dojo before you fight on the street, right? Get your reps in during game, uh, practice before you, uh, step on the field during game time, right? Uh, check your posture in the mirror. How’s your tone of voice? Do I come across as calm as collected? Let me role play with the friend. Let me iron out my phrasing so I don’t trip over my own words in the moment, right?
And then step five, do it. Because. Action is what separates the dreamers from the doers, right? Uh, from the, the, the contenders from the pretenders, if you want to get all cheesy on this, right? But that’s the five steps.

David Pasqualone: And you call that if they go to your website, that’s five steps to dealing with conflict.
So

Jerry Fu: the guide, yeah, it’s actually available for free. Uh, yeah, it’s, it’s the, the PDF is titled a Simple Framework for Difficult Conversations. So yeah, www. adaptingleaders. com forward slash guide. Um, [01:13:00] yeah, check it out. It’s free. Help. Let it help you. Yeah.

David Pasqualone: Awesome. We’ll put a link in the show notes and what’s your website?

Jerry Fu: Yeah, it is www. adaptingleaders. com.

David Pasqualone: Okay. I know you just said it, but just to make sure, I didn’t know if it was different with a redirect. Okay. So we’ll make sure we put all them in there. Well, Jerry, it’s been great speaking with you and we went through your life. We went through where you’re at today.
Where are you going in the future? How could we help you get there?

Jerry Fu: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, it’s, uh, I’m excited to. You know, develop an exit strategy. To focus on coaching and consulting and facilitating full time. If I do stay in healthcare, it’ll be as a coach or consultant and not as a day to day pharmacist.
So I don’t, I don’t want to just simply ask for referrals. I think that’s the easy way out, right? But I think, yeah, just get the word out. [01:14:00] Introduce me to people that you think, you know, we could partner up well together, whether it’s more podcast hosts or organizations that say, hey, you know, we need somebody that can either coach up our Asian leaders or help me understand where Asian leaders are dealing with mentally so that we can make sure that We have good working relationships with them.
So, um, I think introductions are the simplest way to go to say, Hey, let’s get to know each other’s stories and see how we can help each other moving forward.

David Pasqualone: Awesome. Well, it’s been great hanging out with you today, Jerry. And to you, our listeners, we love you. If you have any questions for Jerry, reach out to him.
The show notes of our podcast, all the links to his website. You can go directly to his website. Uh, also Jerry, between your birth and today, is there anything we missed in your story or in your journey of life so far that you want to talk about before we close this hanging out at episode?

Jerry Fu: Sure. Sure. Um, [01:15:00] I guess one thing that comes to mind is just a conversation I had recently with, um, An older gentleman at a international networking event here in Houston, uh, at the height of the Asian hate crimes when the women in Atlanta, uh, were killed at the spa and, uh, we’ll call him, we’ll call him Tim.
So I meet Tim and he asked me, he’s like, Hey, you know, with all these Asian hate crimes going on, like, have you dealt with anything, uh, problematic? Like, is it really that big a deal? And. You know, I remember thinking to myself, well, you know, people are dying. It’s nothing to downplay. He has a, he has a point where the media might sensationalize stuff for ratings when they’re not really caring about their subjects, because honestly, Asian gay friends have been going on for quite some time now.
Um, And, you know, there’s no press coverage on it, but I decided, you know, maybe, [01:16:00] maybe I, I kind of stretch him a little bit and see how he responds to this. And so I said, well, you know, Tim, let me ask you something. Did you know that Houston’s Chinatown was built on discrimination? He goes, what do you mean by that?
I said, well, you know, at one point the city officials said, uh, we don’t like the possible threat of all these immigrants coming in here, so we’re going to sequester them in the Southwest part of the city. And. To add insult to injury, they decided to drop the district in such a way where they couldn’t even have a vote.
Well, that doesn’t sound good. And I was like, well, no, it’s not. And here’s the thing, right? Just because, you know, I haven’t seen any physical violence or racial remarks, thankfully, I’m thankful for that. But, um, a bigger system of discrimination is not okay, just because these people aren’t experiencing physical or verbal abuse.
He’s like, Oh yeah. So I was like, look, you know, I didn’t know if he was just trying to test me or, you know, if he was just genuinely wondering, [01:17:00] Hey, I just wanted like your opinion on the situation. But my hope is that any Asian person or any Asian allies willing to hear the story and say, Hey, you know what?
We want people to be able to voice their opinion without fear. Right. And not be afraid of moments like that. Because when I worked for a chain pharmacy, right. When I grew up in a conflict averse household, right. We were just like, no, don’t embarrass anybody. Don’t insult anybody. Don’t antagonize anybody.
Um, you know, let them save face, even if you secretly resent them. Um, you know, just let them show, show grace in that moment. It’s like, well, what if we showed them grace and we still told them, you know, we weren’t going to condone a lesser standard, what if we were able to say, Hey, like, you know, This isn’t okay, and let’s both strive for something better, where everyone can be seen, heard, and respected.

David Pasqualone: Yeah, I think that’s well said and we should all respect each other. I mean, the two commandments in the Bible that are greater, so love God and [01:18:00] love thy neighbor. And it doesn’t matter what culture, what nation your neighbor’s from. We love each other. Jerry, it’s been great. You’re a well spoken individual. I’m thankful you could be here today. Like our slogan says, like Jerry said, don’t just listen to great content, but do it. Repeat it each day so you can have a great life in this world and an eternity to come.
So if you have any questions, reach out to Jerry, reach out to myself, share this episode with your friends and family. If you think they’re struggling with the same issues, and we look forward to seeing you grow, hearing the results, and we’ll catch you in the next episode.