Dr. Fred Moss | Listening Authentically to Bring Joy, Communication, & Healing to the World
Hello friends! Welcome to this week’s episode of the Remarkable People Podcast, The Dr. Fred Moss story! This week Dr. Moss is going to be bombarded with questions from me. I think I asked more questions to Dr Fred on-air and off, than I have in any episode to date. He’s a psychiatrist, a communicator, an author, and a coach, but he doesn’t believe in pharmaceuticals. And even though he’s treated tens of thousands of patients throughout his career with pharmaceuticals, he saw pharmaceuticals were not helping, but what did help people was listening authentically to bring joy and healing to the world. So check out this remarkable episode about understanding humanity, the mind, and the importance of communication to really love and bring joy into one another’s lives, the Dr. Fred Moss Story!
EPISODE Dr Fred Moss Listening Authentically to Bring Joy Communication and Healing to the World:
Hey, Dr. Fred, how are you today? That’s good. Good to be here. Thanks for having me. Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. You and I were just talking before recording and it’s always good to speak with you. And at this time I’ve already told our remarkable community a little bit about you, but if you can start by sharing your [00:02:00] story and just go chronologically through from birth, your journey, what you’ve learned, you know, the highs, the lows, everything in between, and then we’ll come up to where you are today.
And then where’s Dr. Fred going. So hopefully we can help you get there after you’ve helped us. So kindly, well, that sounds good. I can, I can dig in you know, trying to put my whole life into a, into a section like this. I’m curious what I come up with two, so we’ll start off in 1958 and I was born the same week as the year as you after all.
And so I was born in March 1st. Exactly. Exactly a week ago, 66, 64 years in a week ago. I was born in Detroit, Michigan. I was born to a family that had a 10 year old and a 14 year old boy. And it was in a fair amount of chaos, a fair amount of disarray. And I think they were waiting for me to come out as a Bumble bundle of joy and to bring something new to a family that was really in a lot of trouble.
And so that was my job, right [00:03:00] when I arrived and it’s been my job for 64 years in a week to bring joy and bring communication to a world where chaos and disarray are otherwise present. And as we know now, 64 years in a week later, we are there again. Or we are there still. And my job is to bring joy and sanity and to bring communication and connection to the world.
Now, when I was born, I didn’t have. That, that was like a unique opportunity for me. But when I popped out there, I was, I was joyous. I was fun. I was a rolling ball of energy. And my brothers and my parents taught me a lot early on. They, I knew how to read before I went to kindergarten and I knew how to add before I went into kindergarten.
I knew how to write before I was in the garden. So there I was going finally to school. I had my younger sister that I was taking care of and. I was pretty precocious, you know, I knew how to speak, pretty big words. And there they were in kindergarten throwing blocks and picking her nose and doing shit like that.
I was like, aye, aye, [00:04:00] aye. What the heck is this? After all? You know, I like, and so, you know, by first grade you know, there’s no teacher let’s put it this way. Dave, there’s no teacher that I had in elementary school who doesn’t remember having me as a student that’s for sure. And for seven years, you know, I was loud.
I was funny. I was, you know, I was generally bored, but I brought entertainment. The best I could, I was, I was I suppose a cute kid, but a pain in the neck for the teachers. And I was too smart to get angry with. So in some ways I would get, you know, I would get that I’d be the top student in the class, but I would be a real Royal pain for the teachers.
And I lived that way for much of the elementary school. And then even into junior high, One of the things I really knew is that I loved communication. I loved connection. I loved watching my family speak. I realized that they had four different opinions about the same topic and all four of them could be considered.
Right. So I was always in chanted and, [00:05:00] you know, I was amused and, and engaged in conversations and I wanted it to become a conversational list. And, and so, you know, I figured that they, when I graduated elementary school and I went in all the way, the seventh grade with the big kids that they would teach me how to finally be a communicator, I paired junior high would be the space where you learn how to communicate well, As you might guess, you know, when I got into junior high, it wasn’t any better than elementary school, actually.
It was kind of worse and, you know, kids were even stupider actually in junior high, I was like, okay, I can, I can live with this for a couple of years. It’s high school is where I’m going to learn how to communicate. So, you know, Bit my tongue and hung on through junior high and, you know, got myself in a fair amount of trouble.
But after high school, I figured I would finally learn what the really big kids about how to communicate. And then of course, when I went to high school, it was worse again. I mean, there was deep trouble in high school. There was nobody communicating with anyone. It was just a bunch of, you know, a bunch of crap, basically superficial crap.
So I started [00:06:00] preparing to go to college because, and I didn’t really prepare that. Well, I mean, I stopped doing school. I hated school. So I kind of just hung out and in the middle of the class and, you know, like 250th in a class of 500, when really I’m probably, I probably have the goods to be an adopt 1, 2, 3, whatever, but I wasn’t doing that.
And yeah, I started doing stuff that kids did in the seventies. I, you know, it started like I liked smoking weed and I like you know, watching sports and I like skipping class and I did all that stuff. And. Nevertheless, you know, I finally got into the school of my dreams because I loved their helmet actually.
And that is the university of Michigan. And I feel, I felt like Ann Arbor was going to be the place where I finally could dig in. Right. I mean, that’s where the smart people must go. And yay. I finally like w you know, limped my way into Ann Arbor, university of Michigan. And of course, when I got there, Dave, I learned the same shit that I learned in junior high and high school.
And that is that [00:07:00] communication isn’t taught in college either. Like really what I was now being asked to do was sit there and just absorb whatever the boring or nonsensical stuff it was, the teacher was trying to deliver and then regurgitated as accurately as possible. And if I could do that, I was considered a good student.
And that just seemed insane. That, that that’s what I had to do to be a good student. I’ve asked her for like a year and a half. And then I dropped out of college and went around the country w you know, on a bus and trying to figure out what my life was about. And I had a good time actually for a little while, but then it was like, well, this isn’t going anywhere.
I should probably go back to school so I can get a job and went back to university of Michigan. And really, it didn’t take me long to realize that indeed it was bullshit. So I dropped out again, and this time I came home, I said to my mom in 1980, January 19 ASI mom, I’m not going back to college ever.
That’s, I’m not going to need to be doing that. I need to be a human and colleges tend to teach me that. So she got [00:08:00] me a job, you know, and this is an important turning point in my life. She got me a job as a state at a state mental hospital, a state psychiatric hospital for, and I was started working with adolescent boys.
And I thought I was only going to last about three weeks, but No, that’s how long orientation was and I needed three paychecks, so I could buy my Volkswagen and get back on the streets and, you know, figure out what my life was about. But in the fourth week, I went to, you, went to the floors and began to really talk to these kids who there was a what, six or seven years younger than me, and really got to see them as human beings.
I didn’t see them as being anything less than me. And I just, you know, it was just super curious, super communicative. And there is the first place that I really got to learn, how to communicate in order to heal was just being with these kids. And it was fine. Like I had arrived after finally getting out of school altogether.
I had arrived at a space where communication and connection was being utilized effectively [00:09:00] to create healing. The thing that sucked about that was how psychiatry was treating these kids. So, you know, we would call the psychiatrist at night and say, geez, It’s up too late, or Johnny got in a argument with, with, you know, Timmy and then the psychiatrist would come down and order some medicine or something.
We’d have to hold the kid down against his will and jam them full of an injection of some sort of drug. And if they stayed quiet for the next 12 or 24 hours, we called that a success. And I just found that to be just unacceptable, just completely like tragedy, like horrible. I hated holding down kids. I hated injecting them with meds and I hated the way psychiatry was making these decisions without even talking to these kids.
So I decided that I would become a psychiatrist and go back into that field and reinject communication into the fields of psychiatry. It was already sort of a communication field. So I really thought that that’s where I would get my premiere [00:10:00] communication education while I was in medical school. Now, Hey, before you go on.
Yeah. I want to ask some questions you’re going and you’re giving a great story. It’s exciting, but my mind, go ahead. Your mother, she got you a job and a mental facility with teenage adolescent boys. Did she do that because it was legitimately just a job or was she trying to discourage you to go to college?
Cause that’s a hard, hard place to work. Nah, it wasn’t a hard place to work. She was doing that. She actually got me two applications. One was in the unemployment office and one was in the adolescent psychiatric unit. And the orientation started earlier at the, I had a lesson psychiatric unit and it did it in the unemployment office.
Otherwise I would have been an unemployment dude for the next 30 years, but okay. So she was doing it legitimately to help you. There wasn’t any ulterior motive because I worked for sure. When I was in high school, I worked at a psychiatric Retirement community. And it was [00:11:00] intense. I’ve done for 40 years now.
I mean, I have the highest respect for you because the things you have to encounter. So to do that with teenagers and children, that would be so hard. So that’s why I just want to make sure it was your mom trying to manipulate the situation in a good way to get you to move forward or was it just that’s a job.
Okay. No, no, not at all. She, you know, she, there, my brother was already a psychiatrist. My mom, you know, we had already respects to some degree with mental, for mental health, but in 87, that’s when Prozac was introduced to the world. And when that happened, all of psychiatry was flipped on its ear. So instead of being a field in which communication was the healing modality there was a myth that was propagated that, that if you felt uncomfortable there, that meant there was something wrong with you.
So if you were anxious or depressed or if you were afraid or if you were. You know isolated the, or if you were having bad thoughts and the people thought there was something wrong with you and that there was a chemical imbalance and that we [00:12:00] could treat that with some of these medications.
Prozac was the mother bear of all of that. And as you can guess in, and really as you know, psychiatry flipped on its ear in 1987 and as did all of mental health and medication started to be the modality used by psychiatrists, you know, a few tasks, we go, wait, you’re a psychiatrist. You’re the one who, and if you had to fill in that blank, everyone fills in the blank the same way.
You’re, that’s the field that, oh, you prescribed medicine, right. And it’s like, wow. You know, the problem is. That’s the last reason I would have wanted to go into, I hated prescribing medicine. I literally hated it. And I did it tens of thousands of times. Over the next 30 years, I prescribed so much medicine to so many different people.
At every time I wrote a prescription, there was a part of my soul that was sacrificed every time that I called someone out [00:13:00] for being wrong for being uncomfortable, like being sick for being uncomfortable in this crazy world, there was a part of me that knew there was nothing wrong with them. And all they were doing is living life in this very confusing and crazy unpredictable world that you and I had already mentioned earlier today.
And I didn’t think there was anything wrong with him, but I had to say there was, and then I had to medicate them because that’s what the industry requested. And so can I ask you a question before you go on? It’s very pertinent. So just last night I was with some friends of mine and one is a. High-level physician and we were discussing, they are over 3,500 different physicians, and we’re talking about their particular, you know, patient load, not specifics, but somehow it got caught up and they were discussing that they thought that 75% of their patients didn’t actually have physical ailments.[00:14:00]
There are mental and emotional they’re bleeding into the physical. So with that said, when you were seeing, you said you were prescribed thousands and thousands of prescriptions for thousands and thousands of patients, how many of those patients, if you’re a guesstimate from your experience had legitimate, you know, mental disorders versus they just had stress and they had guilt and they had trauma that they never dealt with.
Like where would you say that Ally’s.
I’m not sure that I agree that there’s any such thing as legitimate mental disorders at all. So I would, the truth is we’re all living life to the very best of our ability with the tools that we have and we’re missing, we’re all missing some tools and we all wish we had other tools, but the truth is we’re living life.
The way we live life in each life is perfect in its own. Right. And I would not, I’m not positive that I’m any longer in agreement that there’s anything [00:15:00] such as a mental disorder that helps anybody to declare that they have it. So some of us do some things better than others. Some of us are unhappy or anxious or fearful, or like we mentioned before are, or feel like lonely or isolated or.
Maybe the odds are going too fast or unable to complete tasks or having trouble sleeping or trouble with relationships, dude, that is just straight up humanity. That is just straight up humanity straight up. There is no, but if we have never defined the word normal, where do we get off to finding something called abnormal?
Like. Like you tell me someone who’s normal. I really want it. Like, I can’t, I want to interview that guy because there is no such thing as normal. And if there is no, unless you decide that we’re all normal and you can decide that we’re all normal, but it’s not like any of us is know what’s going to happen in the next few minutes.
It’s not like any of us know really how to live life. We only know how to live life in a world, [00:16:00] created by agreement realities. We think that if we sit and we listen and we go to work and we don’t hurt people and we, you know, only drink a little and only eat us, you know, only on meals and sleep at night and wake during the day.
And we think that. And we call it normal. And if you fall into that, then you won’t be declared a, anything like mentally defective. But the truth is once you get a diagnosis and once I or any doctor starts to medicate you for a mental health diagnosis, you now have a mental health diagnosis. For sure. So I’m not denying that.
Like once someone tells you an elephant and you agree that you’re an elephant, you’re an elephant. That’s the way that is. If someone tells you you’re an elephant and you agree. And you’re like, dude, that explains everything. I’m an elephant. This is awesome. You are then an elephant for that time, for sure.
And no, one’s going to be able [00:17:00] to talk you out of it because you have some stake in the matter. So once you declare that you have a mental health diagnosis, that there’s something actually wrong with you, and then you start taking medicines that actually often perpetuate the symptoms they’re marketed to treat because that’s what they do by design.
Then not only are you mentally ill in a way, because you agree with your diagnoser, but you’re mentally ill because the treatments you’re receiving are actually making you mental will yell. So you’ve got all sorts of reasons to be mentally ill now. And it’s a hard horse on a cart situation. You might be like, oh no, you haven’t been met my sister.
My sister is really mentally ill or my uncles. You know, my uncles neighbor is really mentally ill. What I’m suggesting is once you start taking medicines and once you start walking the world, as if there’s something wrong with you as, as there’s something bad or defected or afflicted about you, then you [00:18:00] are indeed living a life of someone who is less than when we start looking at each other as if we are simply humans going through this.
You know, going through this world in an Annette without a very good recipe of how to do it. When we start really having compassion for everyone, she just living life the best that they know how given the information and the skill set that they have. Now, we’re starting from ground zero and we can give respect to people and give compassion, acceptance, and forgiveness to people that they deserve.
And when you look at someone in the eye and actually get them for who they are, it is unbelievable that healing can occur instantaneously. At that moment, it does not require medication or years of therapy or being institutionalized or anything crazy like that. It really requires simply resonating with another person and getting them for who they are.
Now I met you, you know, we [00:19:00] fast forwarded to what happened over my career. I did this for 40,000 people. David. I was, I entered the charts of 40,000 people in my life, and I worked in every modality known to American psychiatry, and I even worked around the world and other modalities. So, you know, nursing homes and homeless shelters and inpatient units and outpatient units and residential treatment centers, and three quarter houses and halfway houses and rehab centers and partial hospital programs and prisons and jails.
And. Orphanages and home visits and it, you know, I’ve worked in all of those areas and I’ve been a leader in all those areas and tele health and, and you know, in group therapies and you know, and 12 step institutions and lots of different places. And the truth is the best work that gets done is when you can look across at another person to actually listen to them until they feel like they’ve been heard.
[00:20:00] And at that moment, boom. And that’s what we’re talking about here. People just really want to be heard and that’s who I’ve come up with. Yes. And for your story, let’s go back to, you’re working at this mental health facility with the boys, and then you decide to go to college and become a psychiatrist and then bring us through today.
Cause I don’t want to skip anything. Is it important, any challenge you really had to overcome any just personal struggles that you had to face. We want to go through it, not just to hear your story, but then how did you overcome them and practice steps? So we can to, yeah, fair enough. I can do that. I mean, I’ve had, I’ve had, I’ve lived about three lives in the 64 years.
I, I have had, I have a pact. I have a life just packed with trials and tribulations and packed with accolades and, and gifts and attributes. So, you know, I went back to school and Prozac was introduced. I before too long there, I was doing a residency in child and adolescent [00:21:00] fellowship. And I raised, started raising my family in Cincinnati.
I married a nurse that I had met in my fourth year. And we moved down to Cincinnati and I raised two kids for a while in Cincinnati, not for awhile. I mean, I, they, they actually lived in Cincinnati, their whole life their whole before they went to college and two beautiful kids who now live in Texas, they’re doing fabulous.
Both of them. They’re amazing. They’re my two best buddies. And shout out to them if there’s somehow catching this, it’s just, I love them. They’re, they’re everything. I mean, they’re, you know, they’re the reason to live. The rest of my life was to have them. And you know, then we ended up divorcing and I ended up being in another family and, and marrying again, and this time in a blended family.
So two more daughters, I had four teenagers for a while and went to all sorts of soccer games and bands and, you know, to juggle the whole life with four kids while I was being a psychiatrist on call everywhere and running around Cincinnati with the second biggest practice [00:22:00] in. And as I said, kind of hating, hating that part of it, like hating the diagnosing and hating the medicating.
Like really just, just, just liking it immensely. Nevertheless, I made up some money, you know, and I was powerful and people cared about what I said, cause I was an MD. What are you supposed to do? Throw your MD back in the river. I, you know, it’s like Zoe there I was. And, and you know, when that stopped working and it really did in 2006, I began to take people off medicine.
And that was a really important piece. I got myself in a little bit of, a little bit of a challenge with the mental medical board. I had a DUI in 2002 and then 2006, they got track of it. And then they, they wanted me to double and triple back and do all this crazy shit. And I did everything the way they wanted me to.
But when I came back out of that and you know, never lost my license or anything like that. I started doing things a little more radical. I was a little more grounded. I [00:23:00] was like, you know what? You only live one life. And if I, if I’m going to get in trouble that way, then I might as well actually do things the way I want you.
And I started taking people off their diagnosis and off their medicine. And lo and behold, without any surprises here, they got better each and every person that I took off their medicine got better. And I started realizing that these medicines are actually making people worse and. I started doing it with a little bit higher risk people, you know, and they got better.
Every, almost everyone got better. And even some people got so much better that the system wasn’t ready for them to be healthy. The system counted on them being like mentally ill and dragged up and stuff. And so when they got well, their family or the, you know, the, the community wouldn’t support them getting better than they wanted them to get worse again.
And then they would be back on medicines and take back their diagnosis. It was kind of tragic and discuss this because we have people in America and we have podcast listeners all over the globe in over 90 countries. And a lot of countries aren’t going to understand how [00:24:00] American health, the health system works.
Even Americans don’t understand how the health system works, but if you were to get people off pharmaceuticals and they were welcoming, That disrupts the money flow disrupts a lot of things. And so explain a little bit more when you say society wasn’t ready for them because people are like, what, why wouldn’t you want people to have.
But the sad reality is these companies don’t want people healthy. So it’s not, it’s not just a company. Sometimes it’s the family or the spouse or the parents who don’t want them healthier because, you know, they’ve, they serve a real function. If they’re walking around drooling and, you know, sleeping too much or shuffling, or, you know, being obvious that they are somehow deranged, then the family can blame all their issues on the identified patient.
And then the patient themselves can also blame their own humanity on a diagnosis. So, you know, when I’m a jerk to my [00:25:00] wife or when I’m you know, cause some degree of trouble somewhere or I hurt someone inadvertently or even intentionally, if I can blame that on a psychiatric diagnosis, rather than on me being human, I will gladly do that.
I will do that in a second. I mean, why not let something else take responsibility from me being a jerk? So there’s that we relinquish the responsibility of our life. When we take on a psychiatric diagnosis. Here’s the other thing, you know, if you’ve got a car and we’ve got four tires and you know, and they’re all at different they’re all at different air pressures and you decide that you’re going to make one of them normal.
One of the tires, normal, the car is not going to ride any better with one normal tire. The car will actually ride worse with one normal tire. So systems get built around the fact of, or I’m sorry, deficiencies of particular identified clients. And it could be community is really built to absorb [00:26:00] those identified clients and have them stay sick.
So it’s not just about the money flow of the company. Some people think that if you blame, the companies are being big pharma or blame insurance companies or blame the doctors or the medical system, the truth is there is a. There is an incentive to be at any point in this incredibly complex yet in some ways diabolically beautiful system called the mental health complex and no matter where you are, including being a diagnoser when you’re a, diagnoser, when you’re a doctor or a social worker, you know, when I was in school, social workers, they never, they weren’t even allowed to make diagnosis.
And now they’re like the number one diagnosis. And when you make a diagnosis on somebody, there’s some, there’s some ego thrill that there’s something well enough about you to have you be able to judge another person as being less than normal. And there’s, there’s, there’s an incentive to that. Like, if I could tell you there’s something wrong with you, that must mean that there isn’t something wrong with me.
[00:27:00] And the truth is everyone. Every piece of this thing has an incentive to continue to perpetuate, but here’s the real truth. The real truth is none of us know what the hell we’re doing. You know, and, and you, I know that you’re, you’re, you know, you have a man of faith and once you start getting that, once you start getting well, there’s a way to learn what to do.
You know, we can look at the book or we can look at different ways of tradition of managing our lives in a way that is steady and consistent with a higher honor with, with being committed to a larger, to something larger than ourselves. And once we start doing that, maybe we let them learn a little bit about what to do, but it isn’t because we know what to do.
We already know that we don’t know what to do. That’s why we lean on God. You know, that’s why we lean on the scriptures because we already know left to aren’t owned devices. We’ll drive ourselves into the dirt quickly, quite quickly. And [00:28:00] when we get that about each of us, when you can look across the table at somebody that you are, they have already deemed to be mentally ill and get that.
No, they’re not mentally ill. They’re that. Like, maybe you’re not mentally maybe you’re just human. When we start starting from there, all sorts of super great things get reset, and we have the possibility of healing. Those who otherwise were pretty committed to being defective. So that’s what happened over the next 15 years is that it isn’t just the American system by the way, people in other countries and who are listening to me right here, they’re already resonating.
There are very few countries that aren’t running on the same theory. You know, there are like. If you look at Nairobi, one of the things that Nairobi does, or it might, yeah, it might be Rwanda actually. And I think what they do is when you’re, when you’re feeling deranged, depressed, sad, anxious, fearful, et cetera, they set you up [00:29:00] with an, with an older woman, usually a grandmother on an orange picnic bench that sits there in the park.
And you go talk to her for a couple hours and you walk away. You’re completely. That’s it, there’s no such thing as Prozac or Zoloft or Seroquel or Adderall or any of that. That is not what they’re prescribing. Now, what they’re prescribing is conversation and connection. And, you know, in Australia, there’s some things called surf therapy where you, you know, you show up and you just surf for a couple of weeks and then you’re all good again, you know, it’s like, you just get, you just get loaded into being connected with nature or another human being.
And what you thought was defective like, oh, I’m depressed or, oh, I’m anxious. Oh, I’m, you know, psychotic. It’s like, maybe you’re none of those things. And maybe what you really need is. And just re introduction to nature and to other people. And that’s how I’ve been running my program since about [00:30:00] 2006 slowly, but surely easing off the gas, medicating people last telling people before I medicate them, that it wouldn’t be that if it was up to me, I wouldn’t met this did not make me friends everywhere, but people would come and ask for medicines and I’d let them know that I don’t think the medicines are going to help them, but if they really want medicines, they can have it.
And people get pissed at that. They’d be like, well, why, why are you saying that it’s not going to help? And it’s like, cause it’s not. That’s why I’m saying. And I mean, I can give it to you if you really want it, but these medicines aren’t built to help you. They’re built to perpetuate the system and it’s marketed to treat.
And you know, if, if I could have a business plan of any different, good or item for. Selling that item created a need for buying that item over and over and over again. That’s a pretty good model. That’s a, that’s a sweet model that might create a perpetual billion dollar a day [00:31:00] industry. Oh, that’s what we have in the mental health industry.
So it is in fact, the number one most profitable industry in the history of planet earth, the number one most profitable industry in the history of planet earth. And you don’t get to be the number one most profitable industry in the history of planner while you’re being legitimate. The only way you can do that is to be illegitimate.
Now here’s the other point, whether it’s illegitimate or not pointing your fingers across the table at one component of it, isn’t very helpful. One of the things that you know, your, your viewers or your listeners can realize is that if you, if you. If you’re ready, if you’re sick and tired of being sick and tired, if you’re sick and tired of this diagnosis, thing of having your whole life, the way in front of you, because you believe, or someone told you you’re defective and you agreed with them.
No one is holding you down every morning and giving you medicine. No one is no one is making you buy the notion that there’s something wrong with you, because some doctor gave [00:32:00] you a diagnosis. You can indeed with a little bit of assistance and a little bit of coaching, and I do provide that level of coaching.
You can re optimize yourself. You can reset. You can find yourself again as somebody who is not defective, literally no, without changing who you are, like the medicines might be adding to you being. These medicines. Like if you, if you don’t believe me, if any of you don’t believe me, all you have to do is start taking someone else’s medicines and see if you feel better, you’ll feel way worse.
I promise you anybody. Who’s watched a commercial for pharmaceuticals. It’s like, Hey, we’re going to cure your elbow rash. And they have 300 ways they’re going to kill you with that same medicine. So I think if anybody’s being objective, they understand what you’re saying. Well, let’s look at the elbow rash because I use that as an analogy, a lot does the elbow Rashed.
And here’s how it goes. If I walk into the doctor and the doctor says, oh, you got, you know, I’m like, dude, I’ve had an elbow rash for three weeks and it won’t go away. And he’s like, well, I [00:33:00] got to cure for that. I’m just like, oh good. They told me you were the best and say, yep, I got to cure for your elbow rash.
Are you ready? He said, yep. Okay, come back tomorrow. We’re going to cut off your arm at the shoulder. I’m like. Yep. Yep. We’ll do that. And then we’ll check to see if you have an album rash. So I come back the next day, they cut off my arm at the shoulder, and then I come back in two weeks for my checkup and they checked for my elbow rash, no elbow rash, no arm, but no elbow rashy there.
So if we get myopic about this whole thing, it’s true. We can take away an elbow rash. We can take away your depression. All we have to do is take away every one of your emotions and depression will go away too. If we get, we could take away your anxiety, all we have to do is take away your capacity to deal with life in any kind of real form.
And you won’t be anxious anymore. And then we’ll check for your anxiety. It won’t be there. And we’ll pretend that that was a cure, but the truth is we cut off your arm to take care of your elbow rash. Okay. If you [00:34:00] look simply for elbow rash. When I come back from my checkup, it won’t be there and you can pride yourself, but you cured that elbow rash by cutting off your arm.
Now, a lot of medicine is built on that, but I’m speaking towards psychiatry for the most part. So, you know, people would come into my office and they’d be like, boom, I’d be like, Hey, how are you doing? And they’d say, oh, I’m okay. And then if I wanted to be an idiot about it, I would just write a note like patient believes they’re okay.
And then, okay, cool. Well, let’s re-prescribe to see you again. But the truth is I knew that they weren’t. Okay. They’re shaking and sputtering and depressed and anxious and they say they’re okay, but that doesn’t mean they’re okay. And then when I started taking people off of medicine and their diagnosis, that’s when their real humanity, this resilient life force that we all have began to reemerge.
And I began to see people again, you know, it was a remarkable, miraculous experience to start taking people entirely off their medicine. Now here’s the thing [00:35:00] about your listeners. What I want your listeners to really get is that life is absolutely absolutely miserable, terrible intolerable, frequently enough.
This is not to diminish the experience of having a life that isn’t working. You may indeed have a life that isn’t working and I’m not suggesting that that isn’t happening. What I’m suggesting is that that doesn’t make you sick. You don’t blame a log for burning enough. You put a log in a fire it’s going to burn you.
Don’t be like, what’s, what’s this burning log all about it’s in, it’s in a flipping fire. That’s why it’s burning. Will you? Life is difficult. And this is in no way diminishes that. You know, some people think that I’m saying something like it’s all in your head. You’re not sick. No, here’s what I’m saying.
It’s not all in your head. You’re not sick. It’s all real. You’re not sick. [00:36:00] You are confused how yes. If you’re not confused, by the way, I also want to interview you. You don’t know anybody who, anybody who’s walking around now saying they got it together. Like they’re not confused is full of junk, man.
That’s not true. So being confused, isn’t a sign of abnormality. It’s a sign of dealing with the insanity of the world effectively by getting that. Hold on, hold on, hold on a second. No, this isn’t making any sense to me. When we start doing that, when we just be honest with ourselves that we are looking at another human there who is trying to figure out how to take the next step in this crazy world, just like we are, I’m telling you that healing arrives there emerges there instantly.
And all of a sudden you have somebody who may have been heard for the first time in their life, by you getting what they’re standing for. Now over the next several years, that’s what happened to me. I began to, you know little by little [00:37:00] began to, you know, I tried out all sorts of new ways, whatever I could do when tele-health came out in like 2008, I was the first guy on the block to be doing tele-health.
I did so many zoom calls. I did, I did so many zoom calls. People didn’t even know what zoom was when I was zooming these days. You know, these days, like back in the day, David, when you, when I was first coming out of residency, if I saw someone talking to a TV. I just immediately hospitalized them instantly.
There had to be something wrong with them. These days, if someone doesn’t talk to a TV, you hospitalize them. Cause that’s all we do now is like, what am I doing right now? I am staring at millions of pixelated lights on a flat screen and pretending that I’m with another person called David dude, I’m not with you, but let’s face it.
I am looking at a flat screen of lights that is representing something that’s sorta pretend. So look like you. And we’re calling this a relationship. Now, back in the day, had [00:38:00] anyone been seen doing this? This was an instant long-term hospitalization. So the possibility is to really get that. That’s cute.
That’s a cute dog. You got there. And the possibility really, really exists to. To meet people where they are and to give them access to optimizing their life by actually actually accepting, forgiving, and having compassion for adding where there are in the world. Welcome to humanity, got designed as a function of that.
You know, my kids grew up, I was all over the world. I, I went to Israel. I went to, you know, Europe is doing work from one country to another, just trying to find a place in psychiatry, but I could actually call my own and be a healer. But it was, you know, once I began to really see people for who they were, that was when I really started being a hero instead of as doctor and And welcome to humanity.
Got designed as a way of really getting that all of life. [00:39:00] You know, we’re, we’re talking about all of life being precious, including the miserable, miserable, spat aspects of it. And, and then over time, you know, at welcome to humanity had me doing less and less formal psychiatry. And I started doing transformational coaching.
I started doing restorative coaching to helping people not get into the medical system if they didn’t want to or helping get out of the medical system, if that’s what they wanted to do. But more than anything, really just helping people see that they were okay. They were literally okay. The way they were, even if they felt completely terrible.
So that feeling terrible and being okay are not mutually exclusive events. It’s okay to feel terrible. And you can be okay even while you feel horrible. That’s the thing it’s just part of being human. So over that, and again, you and I discussed this a little bit before the show. That’s when I really got to going into, you know, short, shortly thereafter.
I [00:40:00] got into going into podcasting. I started, I was an obvious podcaster given that I’ve been a conversationalist since I popped out 64 years ago. And I really enjoyed being a podcaster and really liked helping people learn how to podcast. So I taught a course called true voice podcasting, and we recently had our graduating class have a beautiful summit.
And there’s a second course now that I teach the same, same cohort, second cohort, same course with a couple really cool friends teaching people how to go from zero to podcast or, and broadcast their honest to goodness, authentic message. They’re honest to goodness, true voice into the world. So my book just came out called find your true voice.
I know that’s shocking, but that is the name of my book. And I have another book called the creative eight which points towards, you know, when we’re being creative. Our symptoms or our negative experience tend to dissipate and disappear right away while we’re dancing or singing or, you know, cooking or gardening or doing art or music or [00:41:00] those kinds of things.
So the creative aid and find your true boys as well as a welcome to humanity and another brand called global madness, where I predicted pretty much what’s happening now was just natural throw ops of who I become. So now I’m a healer. Now I really assist people in, in getting that maybe it’s time that we can work together.
Maybe we can unify. Maybe we can bring our true voices together. And self-express ourselves, you know, inside of our authentic message and in a community. And maybe we can even end wars David it’s possible that with true voice and with love that simple combination. That we can end wars because what’s really missing in almost every war we’re having internally and externally is authentic message is our capacity to speak.
Our truth is our capacity to be in community and to love each other. And if we bring that and we still can bring it or we can, there’s no worry. [00:42:00] I look, we think that it’s no longer like, useful to be that well, that might be the end of humanity once we give up on love and give up on true boys, I I’m pretty sure we don’t have anything bigger than those two things.
So see you later catch you on the flip side. Yeah. You know, let me know how it goes for you. Well, yeah, we’ve covered a lot of ground and that’s some fantastic information. Thank you so much, Dr. Fred. So between your birth and where you are today, I got a bunch of questions. So, but between birth and where you are today, is there anything in your story that we skipped.
That you want to cover that significant in your journey? Dude, there is so much in my story that we’ve skipped, that I could cover that is totally significant. Every single event that I had, every single journey, every single partner, every single city, I lived in every single job I’ve had every single, you know, rough experience that I’ve had J times, you know, challenges with my [00:43:00] kids or challenges with money or challenges with authorities or, you know, every single, all the great things that I’ve had.
The awards that I’ve won, the diplomas that I’ve earned, the accolades that I have, you know, the plaques and the trophies you know, all, all of the things that I, all the pets that I’ve owned, all the you know, accidents that I’ve had. I have a couple of near death experiences in cars where I flipped a car going 90 miles an hour into the woods.
That was, that was I suppose, an important experience. And another one where I. You know, the DUI in 2002 was actually connected to a head-on car collision that I had had at five 30 in the morning where I woke up, you know, I fell asleep at the wheel and woke up, looking out over a cliff having had my, the right side of my car and meet the right side of his truck.
And that saved me, you know? And, and then my experience with that guy is magical. I have stories on stories, on stories, on stories. It’s not [00:44:00] really it’s not like, oh yeah, that’s the exhaustive history of my life. No, it isn’t. That’s about one quarter of a percent of my life. And that’s what I have to offer for right now.
So when you ask questions, I may in fact I may in fact you know, bring, bring up some of those. Refer back to some of that. Okay. So let’s just go chronologically, go ahead. When you were in school, you were ahead of the curve and your intellects at a higher level than the average bear. Yeah.
Would you go through school and listen to your teachers and instructors with the attitude? Like this is easy or was it more like, Hey, I want to know, not just okay. Calculus. This is how you do the formula, but why does it work? What kind of mental, what kind of mental angle and mental focus did you have?
Well, that’s a good question. I think it was actually both things, you know, I in elementary [00:45:00] school it was easy, but they just, you know, like I remember I was in a sixth grade reading class in first grade, you know, they just moved me up so that I got to in on, I felt really like proud of myself, but I was also somewhat outside the range of normal.
So, you know, I’d go read with the sixth graders while my first grade friends were trying to learn the alphabet. And so I was always a little bit different and, and I think I always did get that it was easy, but then I became a real helper to the teacher. Like I would help other students get whatever they wanted.
I was always interested in that. If the students would let me, I loved helping. If my colleagues, students would let me help them. I loved helping them. Eventually what got taught was so absurd. That I couldn’t believe that we had to learn it. You had to fill my head with this crap that had no chance of ever being used again.
Now going up to calculus, when you start going to calculus, I was a myth again, Michigan math finalist. And when I was in calculus in 11th [00:46:00] grade, but I was getting high every day and it was like, you know, I wasn’t even really giving myself the kind of energy that I needed to do calculus. Right. And I, I appreciated calculus a lot actually, because it’s so beautiful of an art with derivatives and integrals and all that.
And I appreciated physics for the same matter and appreciated biology and chemistry. For the inherent sort of circular reasoning that supports those scientific reports, you know, supports the scientific formulations, but it wasn’t so much like why do I get, why does this work, or why do I know? Why do I why does it work?
Or, you know, tell me more about people. I think that’s where my struggle was. My struggle was. How is this going to help me be a better person in the world? How is this going to help me communicate with others? Because I was and have been every single [00:47:00] day. I for maybe my whole life. I think it’s been my whole life.
I’m just a proponent. That communication is at the heart of all healing, all connection period. And if what you’re giving me is actually pulling me away from communicating effectively, then that feels like a intrusion. I don’t care if it’s calculus or, or physics or anything. If you’re not teaching me how to be better with my humans, then I want to know why you think this is a good use of my time.
Yeah. And let me ask you with more. I look at. The system, the public school system, even the private school system or born, they shove us into school. Again, this is the American north American norm. It’s in most countries, but not every, they push you into school early. You’re going to pre-K then K, then you go through 18 years of schooling to get another degree, to get another to another degree.
By the time you’re done with school and raise your kids and get any kind of stability. You’re [00:48:00] 40, 45 years old. And you look back you’re like, what just happened with my life? Probably the rink because of the, what people call a midlife crisis. Right. But they don’t teach you. I went through school, bachelors, masters.
I didn’t go as far as you with doctrines, doctorate degrees, but they don’t teach you communication. They don’t teach you money management. They don’t teach you. The difference between negotiation and compromise negotiations. Good compromise is bad. They don’t teach you basic conflict resolution. How Y you know, like that goes through my mind, that’s like the fundamentals of what we need.
So in your world, after seeing so many broken people, not broken, but damaged people, hurting people fractured. Yeah. And then you see, and you said the number one wounded, you see the number one way, they heal through just human communication and love. If we were to [00:49:00] start fixing the system, how, from your experience, you see that, what would that look like?
Where would it start? Because to me it’s like, oh, let’s go back to kindergarten and really start teaching us because obviously our families aren’t teaching it. So what, what would you think based on your experience of where do we start fixing the problems?
I think that if we, you know,
Kids are brilliant. You know, kids are brilliant and just like they are. And if we start treating everyone like no one has to learn. I th I think no one has to learn anything more than how to be great with each other. And, and then everything else you learn becomes gravy. In other words, I’m not so great at being great with everyone.
I’m not, I there’s some people I don’t, I’m not that good with, and there are other times where I’m not that good, even when people that I wish I was better with, but really teaching people [00:50:00] how to communicate, how to be with another person, the impermanence of this life. For instance, it’d be good to just have that.
So, you know, managing the whole trauma based concern of life and death, you know, you’ve had a number of deaths this week in your world and. People are so afraid of death. It’s so wild, you know, that people are so afraid of death. And that is the only thing that is inevitable in our life. So the thing we are most afraid of in the whole world is actually the only thing that is certain, that is, that is an assert absurd combination.
We are a totally terabyte of the only thing in the world that is inevitable. Houston, we got a problem and I think I would really help people with that too, you know, like really bring forth. What, [00:51:00] what is life? What is death? What are we here for? What can we learn from others? What do other cultures have to offer?
Whether other people have to offer? Can we, can we sit with others and, and absorb and be in chanted by and be affected by and be curious about other people’s points of view. If we can do that, if we can do that where we actually listen, even if we disagree to our very core, then the possibility of moving this whole earth thing forward of this, moving this whole humanity thing forward becomes really raw, really relevant until we do that.
There’s no chance if you’re not speaking your true voice and no one will ever know you period. If, what you’re speaking is some sort of version of yourself that you’re pretending to be so that you can protect the person that you otherwise would be. If you tried to be yourself, what kind of life is that?
The biggest tragedy that I can imagine in the whole [00:52:00] world to be, to live an entire life and have it never happened that anybody ever got to know you and how can people get to know you? If what you’re running around with is a story that’s actually protecting yourself from being seen for who you really are.
So there’s something like really, like, you know, maybe embracing the confusion, embracing the absurdity, embracing the pain, embracing all of life as being exquisite for what it is. And from that, you know, bringing forth that we are all humans and we can connect. Isn’t it. Don’t when you consider this, isn’t it somehow, even a little funny.
Like when you do this, when you’re like, Hmm. What if I was to go in life and be really amused with the next idiot I meet? Like, there’s some fun, there’s some release, there’s some power. There’s some freedom that actually comes from being amused and chatted and curious about what any idiot has to say.[00:53:00]
And now that goes into the question, when you define and talk about normal even you said, just when you’re telling your story, use a term, you were outside the range of normal meaning with your, you know, you were a higher intellect and thought process than your peers at school society. Aloft oftentimes sets normal.
And as a Christian, like I have a Christian world view where I believe the Bible is the word of God. So that’s kind of my baseline, my standard, my foundation. So I base my normal off that when you’re using the term normal. And society changes, where is the balance and that, so for instance, you have someone who has a heterosexual relationship that is considered normal.
You have someone who wants to have sex with a goat that by [00:54:00] society and by my standards would be abnormal. Where do you stand on that? Are you telling that person, Hey, you have an issue you’re you shouldn’t be doing those things with a goat or are you saying that’s okay. Be who you are that I was unclear on that.
Yeah. Well, It’s a tough question. I’ve never really been asked what I would do with someone who comes to me concerned about either themselves or someone. They love having sex with a goat. So I, I haven’t always, I haven’t spent a lot of time exploring this exact question, but I think that maybe pedophile look at pedophilia like right now in California, there’s a real issue with legislation trying to pass the tats a huge issue.
They’re trying to say you have the right to have sex with children. Those children aren’t even developed yet. That is wrong. And even if you disagree with me, disagree with me, that’s okay. But in sanity and my mind, come on, kids don’t know life, kids don’t know who they are, kids don’t their children. They shouldn’t even be thinking about sex.
And now you’re saying [00:55:00] some person who wants to have sex with them should have the right to do that. I have a strong, strong opinion on that. Yeah. So are you telling me though that if they find it normal, it’s okay. Or you saying, no, you have an issue and you need to be at. No, I’m not saying either of those things, what I’m saying is that in order for you to be effective in taking on the issue, that’s really important to you here.
For instance, this heinous crime of allowing adults to have sex with adult, with kids, you better get that. The people you’re going to have to deal with deserve your respect, because without your respect, you’re not going to get them to do anything different. Anyways, if you’re going to go at your a F an idiot and I hate you and hate all about you and you can’t do that, and we can’t, you’re not going to be effective in the world.
Anyways, you need to respect people for being where they are. So for instance, with pedophiles or with para paraphilias or whatever one of the best things to do, it’s not about condoning their acts in [00:56:00] any ways. It’s about getting who they are as human beings. When you’re having conversations with them, it doesn’t mean that you’re supporting the crime, the criminal activities that they might be doing, or, you know, they might even be addicted to.
There’s probably a very angry or afraid or hurt soul there. And. That angry, afraid or hurt soul, believe it or not deserves your attention. If it, I, if you can find a way for that, you, as you, as a man of God, you know, I’m sure you’ve either heard stories or maybe of yourself or friends or colleagues in, in, in your faith of people who have turned around really horrible lives, like really crazy habits that they had that they no longer have, because somewhere along the line, they felt heard it, whether that was in the church or by, by an elder or by God themselves, once you feel heard, that’s where the opportunity comes to re to be healed.
And it’s not saying that [00:57:00] no, everyone can do whatever they want and it’s okay. It’s like getting. If I can look at all those experiences as being part of life’s challenges, some of them are intolerable and unacceptable way intolerable and way unacceptable. That’s when I have the best chance of effecting change in the world, it’s like somehow getting that there’s someone over there really with too much fear, too much pain or too deep of a wound.
And in order to, to affect any kind of positive change, I don’t know, a better prescription and to listen to them. Okay. So it does sound like we’re talking the same language because if someone has an issue, no matter what the issue is, and they’re coming to you for help, you help them. And you listen. And the people who are really.
Twisted and have wires crossing their brain. They eat most of the time. I think you’d agree. You’re the professional they’ve been abused and had things happen to them that rewire the [00:58:00] brain. I mean, would you agree with that for the moment? And yeah, I think most people think that, you know, that we’ve all had massive traumas in our life, but yeah, maybe they’ve had, they’ve had particular traumas that they haven’t recovered from shore then their brain, I don’t know that their brain got rewired.
I think that they’re just responding as they’re responding, which is in a suboptimal fashion. It’s amazing what happens when you finally listen to somebody, whether I’ve, I’ve had plenty of experiences with, you know, felons and pedophiles and you know people who are locked away in prisons, jails, nursing homes, et cetera, that once they get heard, you’re looking at an entirely different person, you know, then, then the person who was doing that while they were isolated, Yeah.
And that’s where I was going with this. So the person working through the issue and trying to be healed and free, that is a good thing. And that is a process worth the time. But someone actively going out molesting [00:59:00] children, I in no way, shape or form would ever say that is okay. Behavior. So that’s where I was going with that.
Like, you’re not one of those people, you’re just like, there is no normal do what you want. I mean, you agree that would be unhealthy unwise and, and hearable to that child. So that’s what I just want to clarification on because there’s some people who think, oh, like, listen, I’ll be Frank. I am a man. Okay.
Boys have penis. Girls have vagina. That’s kindergarten cop. I believe it’s mental illness. If somebody says, oh, I want to be a girl today. Like I don’t, I don’t see that as normal. So again, correct me. I don’t care if we’re live on air. I don’t see that as healthy. I don’t see that as profitable in any way.
And it’s definitely. Not a biblical stance. So that’s why I just want to make sure for our listeners when we’re throwing the term normal and there is no normal, I agree you and me and every human. When we just sit there and talk with one another and share love and be understood, major radical changes happen.
[01:00:00] But if the person’s living without conscious and they’re doing horrific acts, I can’t tolerate that. That, that would be like saying what Hitler did. You know? You were raped by your stepfather, so you kill a bunch of Jews. There’s no way that’s okay. Does that make sense? Well, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re kind of crossing over a couple of different borders here.
It’s a, certainly a touchy issue. And what I’m saying is I’m not condoning any of the behaviors anytime, but if you’re going to effect change of any level, it’s worth respecting that that person over there is just another human soul. Even if they’re committing ongoing, ongoing, intentional heinous crimes.
And what are you going to do? I mean, you can either reject them out of hand or think that they should be killed or stoned or, you know, sent to jail forever, but that doesn’t, that doesn’t cure anything just because we’re in tolerance of behaviors. There’s an opportunity to look at these behaviors, figure out what it is that you would [01:01:00] never do, you know, you would never do and live a life of of high honor.
But dishonoring others, I it’s that’s when it gets a little bit tricky. When, when, when you’re choosing to dishonor, others who you think are, you know, worth dishonoring, it gets a little bit tricky then. And I’m not here to argue that point per se. I’ve been in the jails, I’ve been in the rehab systems.
I’ve been in the prisons and those are not places to rehab at all. And punishment doesn’t make those people any better. So the, what does make them better is when they get her. Yeah, and that’s just, and again, I’m the kind of guy we can eat. Totally. One of my best friends in life we’re agreed in almost everything, but when it comes to politics, I mean, you had a black and white polar opposites, but I have religion that questions.
And if I’m wrong, I want somebody to tell me and I want to deal with, to pray and explore it and really search out truth. What is truth? No, let me ask you a question from your experiences. I used to sell less lethal [01:02:00] weapons. So I’d go into prisons and jails and correctional facilities, and, you know, I’d have minor interaction with the inmates, but I’d have interaction with the guards and I’d hear stories.
And I just didn’t see success rate of people going to jails and prisons. And it’s, it was very rare. And even the ones that turn their lives around supposedly. They usually fall back, you know, and it’s a dangerous, dangerous thing. So what have you seen, like, obviously my world is my world, but as a professional, have you seen people really be a pedophile and be free from that?
Have you seen people be a rapist and be free from that? Or is it pretty much they’re stuck? No, I don’t think there’s Chuck. I think you can be a pedophile or a rapist and be free from that, but you’re not going to get free from that by going to prison. So what is it something they need to make a conscious choice on their own to get help?
Or do you think the system should be reformed? Where okay. If this [01:03:00] person is, can get caught raping. What should happen to them to get them healed? Hmm. So again, all that’s really here. I don’t know about getting them healed. You know, I think I’m just going back to the first thing I want to know is I want to know their world view.
I want to listen to them. I want to hear what’s there. I want to feel their pain. I want to catch their fear. I want to be with their anxiety or their isolation or their anger. I just want to be there with them because the magic is happens with that. It does not happen with punishment and it does not happen with years away from society.
It just doesn’t. So you know, the magic in my experience, hundreds, maybe thousands of times happens when people are heard and I, and. That’s when the most shocking miracles take place. And so some, maybe this rapist or this [01:04:00] pedophile or something whatever there, you know, even mass murderers, et cetera, there, it’s, it’s not always simple and it doesn’t work for everyone and people, some people stay bad.
I mean, they stay really bad and I don’t want them anywhere near me or my family ever. And you know, or, or with anyone that I love or care about, I don’t trust them as far as I can spit and, and there’s something to be learned about those people too. It isn’t like I’m going out there interviewing all the dangerous people in the world and telling them that I love them.
On the other hand, there’s something about loving each and every soul in a way that has you get that it’s, it’s all in assistance for you to have a full and total life. Yes, I agree with that. And every situation is different. There’s hundreds of thousands of complexities and unique equities, but I do want to talk and make something cool.
And you correct me if I’m wrong, let’s say there was a pedophile and they seem to be [01:05:00] fully restored. Like they really saw the error of their way and they’ve changed God, forgives them. The people can forgive them, but we’d still be a fool to let them babysit our six year old child. And I believe that. And what’s funny is we just had a guest who that exact thing happened and her own uncle raped her.
Right. And you hear that story all the time. And if someone was an alcoholic, I’m not going to put them in charge of a restaurant bar. So do you think there’s again, we forgive and we love, but there’s also a balance of wisdom we need to use. Yeah, there’s a balance of wisdom we need to use. You know, it’s possible that if you let someone who has no history of pedophilia at all, take care of your six year old, that even worse things could happen.
So it’s not necessarily true that someone with a history of pedophile who then gets who then gets reformed is more dangerous than someone who you don’t [01:06:00] know has a history of pedophilia. Most pedophiles feel like people aren’t caught yet. And you know, that’s part of the crime is that they’re, they’re doing it.
And they acting like they hate pedophilia. And in the meantime, they’re still, you know, they’re caught up in their own and their own perversions. And so you can’t really protect entirely. And it’s so I guess my point is. Having a history of a certain crime doesn’t necessarily. And Ben being reformed doesn’t necessarily make you at a higher risk of committing that crime again, then somebody who has no history of at least no known history of that crime people are people.
And there’s a matter of really, you know, trusting and not trusting based on your inner intuition. If you don’t think that that man should take care of your, you know, take care of your care, your child, and please don’t let them take care of your job. You’ve got some intuition that says that, then don’t let them take care of your child.
That’s on you a little bit. And on the other hand, you know, that could be someone who [01:07:00] w who has committed a ton of crimes or not. I was just talking with my wife yesterday, some of the organizations in Cincinnati, like there’s a particular bagel factory, downtown Cincinnati, where a hundred percent of the employees are felons are convicted for us.
Like that’s a prerequisite to be an employee at the place. And the place is absolutely gorgeous. It’s just like the coolest place in the world to go, to get bagels. It’s like the sweetest place in the world. Everyone knows that these are just felons who have, you know, reformed their ways and are here having a job.
And those bagels are so tasty and the way, you know, the service is so great and the people are so wonderful and there’s like a non pretension that runs through there. And some of these people, they committed some serious heinous crimes, serious heinous crimes, you know, and they’re out in the streets again.
And should that person, I, you know, I’m not afraid to hire that person to work in my business. Not at all. Awesome. Yeah. And that’s true. I’m not saying everybody who’s created a [01:08:00] crime is bad and it’s forever bad, but I think there’s a wisdom in being aware of. I mean, I think for my history and from looking at statistics, you definitely have, if you took a hundred people and.
A hundred people who have pedophilia in their past, they’re going to have a higher repetition rate because it’s in them. It’s been programmed in them. It’s happened to them. They’ve experienced it. It’s like an addiction almost. So that’s where I was going with that. But again, I want to make sure, well, it’s more than pedophile.
You see, they don’t just have pedophilia. They have socially already exposed pedophilia. It be that’s the difference. The difference between them and those who aren’t caught yet is that they are now dealing with the world coming down on them for having been exposed for being a pedophile. [01:09:00] So there’s an additional component of these hundred pedophilic.
So for instance, because all of them have already been identified with that. And there’s a trauma to that too, that alters who they are. So we get it that they’re different than the so-called non pedophilia, but there’s also this other group that are secret pedophiles, who haven’t been caught. And they’re probably more dangerous than the actual pedophiles, but we wouldn’t be able to yeah, a hundred percent, we wouldn’t be able to, we wouldn’t be able to stratify that cause we wouldn’t be able to find them cause we wouldn’t, cause they’re not identifiable.
And we wouldn’t be able to say. You know, and so in fact, there’s a crew out there who is more dangerous than the convicted pedophiles. And that is the unconvicted pedophiles. Yeah. There’s a false sense of security and you don’t see it coming. You don’t see a comment and you’re pretty comfortable. Uncle Joe has no problems with pedophilia.
He’s never been arrested. So, you know, little, do you know uncle, Joe’s got a great system for pedophilia and he’s more dangerous than [01:10:00] uncle Jimmy. Who’s been in jail twice for pedophilia. Oh, thank you so much for talking with us, Dr. Fred, cause everybody listening, it’s hitting home in some way and hopefully this is benefiting their life to have a deeper understanding.
So losing in, when we were growing up, you know, you you’d have people use the term nervous breakdown and people would have a nervous breakdown. From pressure from trauma from stresses. And I was always told, and what I witnessed was once that rubber band snaps, they don’t go back and they might recover, but they’re not.
Is that a fallacy or is that, is there some truth to that mentally? Like once the it’s really it’s really on the same thing I just said, once you’re exposed and you get called a certain thing and you agree that you have it, and then you take medicine or therapies that are geared towards adjusting that it actually perpetuates the symptoms it’s marketed to treat.
So you have a nervous [01:11:00] breakdown. How do you know you had a nervous breakdown because you went to someone who actually confirmed that it was that. And then they began to treat you for that through either therapy or Madison. And now you not only know you’re an elephant, you’re being treated for being an elephant.
And when you’re being treated for being an elephant, now there’s a confirmation that you are that. And if you agree that you could never go back and recover, whatever going back means, by the way, I don’t know anyone who’s ever gone back to anything including you or me, like you don’t go back going back.
Isn’t it’s a false, that’s the illusion. The fallacy is that you can go back to anything. So once you’ve been identified and exposed and then, and. Labeled and then treated for a particular condition. You have a propensity to continue to show that condition because of whatever reason, if I believe like, you know, for instance, my hip hurt yesterday after my workout.
And I know that hip pain, because I used to have it when I [01:12:00] wasn’t working out. Now, if I believe that my hip just broke or something like that, I will not spend any time you know, rehabbing it or, you know, exercising through it. So today with my trainer, we went right at this hip. We went right at this hip in a way that I’ve never done before.
And now my hip feels better than ever having gone right through that. But if I would have just bought that, I got a broken hip, I got a hip that’s not working well. I got a hip that suboptimal, then I would never take on what it would take to actually rehab my hip, to bring it back to normal or bring it back to being effective or strong.
So. There’s a lot that goes into the mindset. And once we’re identified with something that we agree is a defective deficiency. Okay, well, let’s do this. Then I got two more questions for you. If you have the time and then turn into where are you today and where you heading so we can help you get there.
There’s people who suffer trauma, real trauma, real betrayal, [01:13:00] real seriously life-changing things. Yeah, for sure. The society we live in, it says exactly what you and I have talked about for the last hour and a half medicate. The symptoms don’t treat the real issue. So someone had trauma, they were betrayed.
They were harmed. Where do they start? Give us some practical steps or the listeners myself included I’m hurting. I struggle with depression letting go of the past. Where do we go to start? Well,
I’ve written two books, and I think both of them are the really, as I, as I think about it both titles are an answer to this question. So the first book I wrote was called creative eight healing through creativity and self-expression and. When we’re being creative, [01:14:00] when we’re in the world of art, music, dancing, singing, drama, cooking, writing, gardening, photography, cleaning.
When we’re being creative during the act of creation, we can Aleve alleviate a lot of the negative vibrational symptomology that we have. You might notice that even some of the artists are some of the most pain people in the world. You know, some of the finest musicians, they have had some trauma of their own and they’re leaking out through their own creativity.
And that really is a great space to express that part of humanity, which is ultimately, you know, intolerably. Uncomfortable. So creativity is one space that I think really does address that. But I think the second space, and this comes from my next book, the find your true voice book is to find someone somewhere that you can share your pain with, like, like authentically, like, what is it about your present circumstances that has you all twisted up or [01:15:00] all, you know, wrapped around the axle and that’s, that takes something, you know, that might be a lover.
It might be a friend. It might be a priest. It might be you know it might be, I don’t know. A work colleague or a neighbor or stranger, I might be a doctor, but I, I think when you go to a doctor in this situation, it’s where it gets really tricky. Because when you go to a doctor, us doctors were trained to call you wrong.
Okay. We’re trained to diagnose, you were trained to give you a defective diagnosis. In fact, if we don’t give you one, we won’t get paid. If I, if you come into my office as a psychiatric patient and I write no diagnosis, no one will pay me as a broken system. Well, that’s just the way the system works. So when that happens,
yeah, so I,
you know, it’s [01:16:00] like if you go into a barbershop enough times, you’re going to get a haircut and, and that’s what, that’s what we’re talking about here as well. So I don’t know that going to a doctor is the best ticket. I think that the best ticket is to be heard and to be creative. And if anything, else, to help anyone do anything.
So you might find that, you know, being of service is not a bad idea in this situation as well. So bringing your trauma forward because others have others have experience and are, and are interested in what you did or what you’re not doing to, to address your trauma. That’s another way to manage this.
So serving others, talking through it and. Being creative, being creative and creative can be, it could be on a computer. It could be through painting. It could be whatever building cabinets, anything that we find enjoyable. Yeah. Yeah. Art, music, dancing, singing, drama, [01:17:00] cooking, writing, gardening or the the creative eight and then a couple more photography and cleaning.
And then the final one, which is helping anyone do anything. Yeah. Did you ever hear that song? Count your blessings a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I think I have. Yeah. Did you ever hear the story about that? No. Yeah. So there was a woman who was always depressed and she was going to her pastor. I need help. I need help.
He’s like, yeah, I’ll absolutely help you. But Hey, I’m short for time. Can you go deliver groceries to this, this other woman? She’s like, oh yeah, yeah. And the next day she comes back and say, oh, I’m really, I’m really backed up. This person needs a meal, so I’ll go, I’ll do it. And then after like three or four days of this.
She was so busy helping other people that her depression went away. Exactly. That’s how it goes. Yep. Yeah. So, all right, last question. And then we’re going to transition to where you are today. And this is something that, again, based on your worldview and based on your perspective, it could change your answer.
So I just want Dr. Fred’s answer. [01:18:00] When I read my Bible old Testament and new Satan fell, betrayed, gone, a third angels, followed them a fallen angels, just the demon in the biblical history of the Bible. It talks about people being demon possessed. They’re crazy. They’re out of their mind. Right. Have you seen people where you felt they were demonically possessed and they literally just had something in them that was controlling them?
Or do you feel that everything is. Trackable can be explained and cured because that’s something that in America, we completely almost throw that out. But in foreign countries they still think, oh yeah, demonic, possessions real. And when I read my Bible, a third of the third of the demons, didn’t just disappear.
Well, Christ the rose, they’re still walking the earth. So I’m not saying you’re possess, you’re possess, you’re possessed, [01:19:00] but I do believe there are people possessed and it’s causing what we categorize as mental illness. What’s your opinion on. Well, I don’t make that equation necessarily. I don’t disregard that equation.
I’m curious about, you know, people who think that I don’t have answers to a lot of things. It’s not like one of the other you know, there are people in the world doing things that I find to be unbelievable and, and like shocking and, you know, just deeply disturbing and whether or not they’re demonically possessed or, or they have some deep deep issues that again are the best.
It doesn’t, I almost don’t really need to know what’s a sources because the best answer for all of this all the time is to listen. It just is, I don’t have a better answer and that’s it, you know, I’m really here to respond the best way that I can. And it isn’t like, listen and offer them up my neck.[01:20:00]
Listen, what is really there? What can I learn by this person who many people are calling demonically possessed or what can I learn from whatever the behavior is that I find to be you know, again, against my greater core values. And it’s not all simple. It’s not all simple, there’s massive confusion in the world that it’s okay to represent yourself, to allow yourself to be massively.
All right. Well with that, Dr. Fred, we appreciate you being here today. Thank you for all your insight, but where is Dr. Fred today and where are you headed so we can help you get there? Yeah, so you know, where I am today is really in this world of helping people find their true voice of listening authentically to as many people as possible with creating massive community of realizing that we can end war actually with true boys and love.
We can do a lot of things where if we are willing and able and strong and courageous [01:21:00] enough to bring our authentic message forward and then deliver it effectively into the world, that’s waiting to hear it. So that’s who I represent. That’s what I’m doing in my coaching. That’s what I’m doing in my expert speaking.
That’s what I’m doing in these podcasts gigs. That’s what I’m doing in my own podcast hosting. And I don’t have anything that much better to do. You know, I have a beautiful wife. I got these three cats who own me. They’re, they’re unbelievable. Desperate Zito, Valentino, and Winston are my dudes.
And I have these two kids who are down, down in Texas doing great. And really what I, what I have now is just a matter of pouring on whatever I can find in the world of love, whatever I can find in the world of amusement or enchantment or Sage like wisdom. You know, I’ve lived a life. And so the opportunity for me isn’t that I have all the answers.
And frankly, I think I have sorta none of the answers other than the idea that it sure seems like love is an effective way to get through the world. And as is. [01:22:00] Listening and so love and listening and being connected to others is where I’m headed. And, you know, I’ve created some it’s. I create some advanced to the next, the next event is going to generate over a million dollars between now and three weeks from now for the war torn Ukrainians.
We’re going to be looking at you know offering massive funding and massive awareness to those who are suppressed in Ukraine and in other areas of life, other areas of the world where free speech is being suppressed. So I’m, I’m, I’m break for opponent of the capacity for free speech. It is being threatened for all of us.
And you know, it almost doesn’t matter where I say I’m going because tomorrow the world’s gonna serve me up something different than I saw come in anyways, and I’m going wherever it takes me. So, you know, that’s, that’s true too.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So. How would someone reach you? I’m going to put links in the show notes, but [01:23:00] what’s the best way for someone to reach you, to learn more or to connect with you for some coaching. So I think if you want some coaching, you might want to, you know, people who are listening or watching this might want to just.
Plug into find your true voice.com. I’m sorry, it’s called find your true voice book.com. That’s where my new new book that just got released two weeks ago is, and I’ll send you a free copy of my book. You know, all you have to do is pay for a shipping. That would be one way to really get an answer.
But if you really are looking for some coaching, you don’t want to come through the mental health system, or you really want to, you speak to your own authenticity and find your true voice. If you find this, something that resonates with you, then the best way to get ahold of me is just to write me at Dr.
email@example.com. That’s Dr. firstname.lastname@example.org. And you can also find me on Facebook and on LinkedIn. I don’t like Facebook very much, but everybody in their grandma’s there. So I guess I have to be there for now. And so Facebook, LinkedIn, and a little bit of Instagram and then you know, writing me.
Yeah. [01:24:00] I will respond. You’ll get me specifically and we could set up a call and see if coaching or the mastermind that I teach, or any other form of any other form of assistance that I can provide might be available and interesting to you. Excellent. Thank you so much for being here today, Dr.
Fred old ladies and gentlemen, please like our slogan says don’t just listen to great information that Dr. Fred brought, but do it repeated each day. So you can have a great life in this world and an attorney to come. So, Dr. Fry, thank you again. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Oh, absolutely. It’s been a pleasure and joy and hope we continue the friendship and for our friends around the globe, reach out to Dr.
Fred, reach out to me. If we can help you in any way, check out some back episodes, check out some future episodes like us, rate us, review us, do all those great things so more people can hear. Like Dr. Fridges brought [01:25:00] us. So I’m David Pascoe alone. Thanks again, Dr. Fred and to our listeners. We’ll see you in the next episode, found out.